Aircraft Crash in Moscow
prober thanks, and speed and 2nd approach?
thank you prober for your kind reply indicating that the 757 too is a slippery a/c when landing light re my much earlier post questions.
very sad to hear a 5th crew member has perished, i hope that the young lady carried out of the a/c in the news-clip was not the young lady that died.
however,
as i mentioned in my early post the about wondering what was the actual speed of the a/c when it struck the embankment (threw a 3 seat passenger unit across the road) and therefore the impact injuries would be severe akin to BMA 737 on the M1 at Kegworth.
if you were facing backwards (crew jump seat) your survival without serious injury is better in such forces.
have we established yet whether this was a 2nd approach or not?
or was that mis-info.
very sad to hear a 5th crew member has perished, i hope that the young lady carried out of the a/c in the news-clip was not the young lady that died.
however,
as i mentioned in my early post the about wondering what was the actual speed of the a/c when it struck the embankment (threw a 3 seat passenger unit across the road) and therefore the impact injuries would be severe akin to BMA 737 on the M1 at Kegworth.
if you were facing backwards (crew jump seat) your survival without serious injury is better in such forces.
have we established yet whether this was a 2nd approach or not?
or was that mis-info.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 1,011
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Youtube video, refered by Stuck_in_an_ATR earlier:
...uups, somebody is more catchy then me...
Doesn't mean this case is even near similar, through.
@rog747: it was not second approach, nor there was any mayday situation (engine on fire) or "forced landing".
...uups, somebody is more catchy then me...
Doesn't mean this case is even near similar, through.
@rog747: it was not second approach, nor there was any mayday situation (engine on fire) or "forced landing".
Last edited by Kulverstukas; 31st Dec 2012 at 07:44.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by rog747
have we established yet whether this was a 2nd approach or not?
or was that mis-info.
or was that mis-info.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 1,011
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MAK reports that bracking index of rwy 02/20 was 0,63 20 min before accident.
At forumavia.ru smb "avia-spec" hinted that throttles was at TO configuration, when cabin was removed from the site and that "people, at every landing wow limit switches crimped if links is not broken, but if the signal went on is another question"
At forumavia.ru smb "avia-spec" hinted that throttles was at TO configuration, when cabin was removed from the site and that "people, at every landing wow limit switches crimped if links is not broken, but if the signal went on is another question"
Last edited by Kulverstukas; 31st Dec 2012 at 08:25.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 1,546
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I found the eleven minute TU 204 Cockpit Video Red Wings Airlines, filmed in 2011, quite interesting, sorry don't know how to post a link.
Could anyone here possibly comment if there is anything relevant to the standard of operation shown on that video?
Could anyone here possibly comment if there is anything relevant to the standard of operation shown on that video?
Last edited by mary meagher; 31st Dec 2012 at 08:16. Reason: misspelling
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: London
Posts: 390
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
fdr Just realised that my argument about the decision to go around didn't match the quote I pasted! Well spotted.
My comment was solely based on the google maps photo posted by Kulverstukas, where he places the picture of the aircraft at around the penultimate landing marker. His information is usually reliable, but you seem to think that the picture was taken above the 150m marker. In which case yes that height would be slightly high but acceptable. Time will tell.
My comment was solely based on the google maps photo posted by Kulverstukas, where he places the picture of the aircraft at around the penultimate landing marker. His information is usually reliable, but you seem to think that the picture was taken above the 150m marker. In which case yes that height would be slightly high but acceptable. Time will tell.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by jazz hands
Does anyone know the actual runway designation? NOTAMs say 01/19, as does the aerial view on maps, but it seems to have acquired the designation 02/20 - was there a change somewhere along the line? 
Permafrost - the picture was taken abeam the 150m marker (not the penultimate 750m marker) as the latter has a taxiway exit at the start of it - also if you look at the video of the other landing and freeze at the 150m point you can see the PAPI lights which are also visible on the photo.
Interestingly the aircraft in the video is a lot lower at this point and still managed to float another 750m to the end of the TDZ!
Interestingly the aircraft in the video is a lot lower at this point and still managed to float another 750m to the end of the TDZ!
Last edited by Doors to Automatic; 31st Dec 2012 at 09:31.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No use banging your head BOAC
"was there a change somewhere along the line?". There is a thing called variation.
Last edited by BOAC; 31st Dec 2012 at 09:52.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: 3.5 from TD
Age: 47
Posts: 1,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HundredPercentPlease: Thank you for the link, very interesting video.
Looks as if that crew either landed with enough thrust to prevent speedbrake deployment, on chose to leave them un-armed for some reason. The bounce back up into the air is a good lesson into why airliners come with auto-speedbrake deployment.
I wonder if that was the same crew that crashed in moscow. I would imagine the chances are quite high considering what a small outfit red wings is.
Looks as if that crew either landed with enough thrust to prevent speedbrake deployment, on chose to leave them un-armed for some reason. The bounce back up into the air is a good lesson into why airliners come with auto-speedbrake deployment.
I wonder if that was the same crew that crashed in moscow. I would imagine the chances are quite high considering what a small outfit red wings is.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: All around the world
Age: 53
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Iīve been reading this thread from the beginning and and also following the news on TV.
Personally what I am missing is that nobody is talking about the airport itself.
There must be some other collegues here, flying into VKO quiet freqently.
I am there at least 4-5 times a week and whenever there is rain, snow or cold temp and the Braking action is reported as good, I am a little more senitive.
Itīs been almost every landing in this condition plus BA good, we are skidding towards the Taxi way because of a slippery Runway.
Personally what I am missing is that nobody is talking about the airport itself.
There must be some other collegues here, flying into VKO quiet freqently.
I am there at least 4-5 times a week and whenever there is rain, snow or cold temp and the Braking action is reported as good, I am a little more senitive.
Itīs been almost every landing in this condition plus BA good, we are skidding towards the Taxi way because of a slippery Runway.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: A little South of North
Posts: 275
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No use banging your head BOAC
My observation is that BOAC does a lot of head banging on these forums. He must have one heck of a headache at the end of the day. Of course it shouldn't detract from the fact that he does provide interesting contributions to threads. It's just a pity that he doesn't show a little more tolerance and less contempt towards those he obviously perceives to be beneath his level of intellect. He reflects the real days of BOAC
Last edited by Pistonprop; 31st Dec 2012 at 10:10.
I suggest you too wait for the data, very good advice.
I was not criticizing anybody, just merely showing how it could have happened.
I find claims of estimating aircraft speed based on angles from photos simply ludicrous, first of all there is so much unknown in the aircraft weight that even if you get angles right and avoid all errors inherent in photos your results may still be bogus. As to my own private suspicions I do have doubts about performance of the crew based on similar past landings of this airline/aircraft.
Last edited by olasek; 31st Dec 2012 at 05:54.
I was not criticizing anybody, just merely showing how it could have happened.
I find claims of estimating aircraft speed based on angles from photos simply ludicrous, first of all there is so much unknown in the aircraft weight that even if you get angles right and avoid all errors inherent in photos your results may still be bogus. As to my own private suspicions I do have doubts about performance of the crew based on similar past landings of this airline/aircraft.
Last edited by olasek; 31st Dec 2012 at 05:54.
if you are not placing a criticism in the absence of evidence to those that cannot defend themselves, then I don't have an issue. Runway overruns are hardly isolated to any particular group or aircraft type, all have had issues, for various reasons, not all being crew causations.
Lyman - off the piste speed... with time could be deduced reasonably accurately from the video images. The data will be recorded almost certainly, by the QAR or DFDR, and will be supportable by the video and the CVR as well. Makes a compelling case for EMAS instead of relying on RESA. It sure hit hard... Whether the crew decided to attempt a G/A is one for the data to disclose. The decision to revert to a G/A would occur after cognition of failure which is going to be deep into the runway, and if the failure has included the reverse thrusts being inhibited, then it would be rational but made with little available information to provide input into the decision making process. In some overruns, this does happen, (often with adverse outcomes) but the majority of overruns result from a continuation of the stopping effort. A sensor failure affecting multiple deceleration systems is going to be pretty nasty, and is not a commonly trained procedure. As the Do328-110 power lever design debacle shows, it doesn't take much to mess up the result.
A late correction to recover an aiming point is quite possibly what is being shown in the second photo (more likely than the aircraft being above normal Vref + additives, given photo 1), and for a low inertia aircraft is not uncommon to see; on a high inertia aircraft, it will get everyones attention and often ends untidily, the resulting flare is complicated from the changed attitude, sink rate, and thrust/trim condition.
Last edited by fdr; 31st Dec 2012 at 10:39.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
does a lot of head banging on these forums
As Milo M posted elsewhere on PPrune, we are infested with people who only look at their own posting or the current page and in MY opinion, someone who does not understand runway designation and variation should be on a different forum, especially when the first question has been answered. So there.
you'd realise I was asking which way it had varied
Edit: Edited for a whoopsie - QED.
Last edited by BOAC; 31st Dec 2012 at 11:01.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
fdr - if you look at Kulver and others' posts about one of the other RedWings over-run, you will see there is a possibility the engines might have gone to around 86% N1 forward thrust during the landing. Kind of makes stopping and going around difficult.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SAYE
Posts: 281
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Video from a car hit by debris of the aircraft, and more:
Video: Moment of deadly plane crash into Moscow highway - YouTube
Video: Moment of deadly plane crash into Moscow highway - YouTube
Last edited by avionimc; 31st Dec 2012 at 10:50.
fdr - if you look at Kulver and others' posts about one of the other RedWings over-run, you will see there is a possibility the engines might have gone to around 86% N1 forward thrust during the landing. Kind of makes stopping and going around difficult.
Quite true. The previous event(s) is(are) significant, and highlight that the single point failure that result in compound retardation device failures is a high stress event, not often you get to see the controls being bent. Such an event being repeated entirely is possible, but also, even without that occurring, the outcome can still be a high speed overrun, just from the loss of all retardation devices, the engines are going to be back at approach idle thrust at a minimum unless shut down... and nothing else working to assist the decel, even aerodynamic breaking is a limited option.