Swiss RJ captain "struggled" to fly without a flight director to tell him what to do
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Hey guys. What is this flight director thing that you rely on so much?
Never had one in any of my military steeds. Sounds like it is more trouble than it is worth if you have to ride herd on it all the time to make sure it is telling the truth.
Am I missing something important from my CV?
A Merry Christmas to all.
Never had one in any of my military steeds. Sounds like it is more trouble than it is worth if you have to ride herd on it all the time to make sure it is telling the truth.
Am I missing something important from my CV?
A Merry Christmas to all.
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Reinhardt:
I suppose, had we flown the simulator in uniform. Thinking back on it before we advanced to Level D simulators the rating rides were in the airplane. So, we did the 45 degree banked turns in actual flight and no one died. Alas, that too was in civies.
Ah... so my apology, yes I see you were more than adequately trained. What an adventure it used to be.
Were you allowed to have the upper button of your battle-dress loose as a testimony ?
Were you allowed to have the upper button of your battle-dress loose as a testimony ?
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machinbird:
If you knew what you were doing you "didn't have to ride herd" on it, at least not on an ILS approach. It wasn't required to be used at all except on an ILS approach, at least in my 727 days.
Never had one in any of my military steeds. Sounds like it is more trouble than it is worth if you have to ride herd on it all the time to make sure it is telling the truth.
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OK465:
Having had and used the single cue FD all my career, I don't think I could make a dual cue work for me if I were confronted with one.
It seemed so intuitive to marry up with the little yellow "v."
Having had and used the single cue FD all my career, I don't think I could make a dual cue work for me if I were confronted with one.
It seemed so intuitive to marry up with the little yellow "v."
The Hawker 800 aircraft I flew could be switched from dual cue to single cue with a button in the cockpit on the fly. 
When I went to FlightSafety for Hawker 800XP training I discovered the same thing. All of my previous jet experience was on "steam gauges" so the Honeywell glass setup was entirely new to me. I'd heard all the nonsense regarding the difficulty of the transition to glass so when I climbed in for sim session one and saw those two needles on the EADI screen instead of a proper V bar...
After "faking" my way through a takeoff and departure procedure looking "through" the FD cues to the raw data I decided to try following the cues. It reminded me of the GS and CDI needles on the old 172s I'd trained on years before and I eventually started to get the hang of it even though I was decidedly uncomfortable. When I mentioned this to the sim instructor, he laughed and directed my attention to the switch on the panel to my left. What a relief!
Veering momentarily back on topic...
I did have an exciting moment once in that Hawker when the EADI on my side went dark while flying a DP. I looked at the stby ADI and saw the attitude was still the same (10 deg NU and 25 deg bank) and that the co-pilot EADI looked normal so I asked the other guy if he wouldn't mind flying rather than test my skills on the little stby AI. We switched roles long enough to reach a safe altitude and reset the EFIS power. We never did figure out why this happened but figured that those little stby instruments might yet come in handy one day. I've never yet been required to demonstrate competency at flying an IAP using stby instruments only during any training/checking event. The way I see it, a real emergency is no time to find out you're not up to the task. Just include flying solely by reference to the stby instruments in recurrent!
And BTW it's not that big a deal once you've tried it a couple of times.
Last edited by westhawk; 24th Dec 2012 at 20:48.
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ok465:
Same with even the early 767s. But, maintenance had to do it I believe in the E & E bay.
Little did they know we had a reconfigurable FD-110 display which could be set up with V-bars
Ideally, a competent instrument pilot should, with hardly raising of an eyebrow, be able to switch seamlessly from AFDS/ automatics operation, to disconnecting all the goodies and hand flying raw data. if the pilot cannot accomplish that task without the potential for a PAN call, then seriously he needs to recognise his failings and rectify them. This applies equally to those in the LH or RH seat. A professional pilot should be equally skilful at both tasks - automatics or raw data flight.
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Ideally, a competent instrument pilot should, with hardly raising of an eyebrow, be able to switch seamlessly from AFDS/ automatics operation, to disconnecting all the goodies and hand flying raw data. if the pilot cannot accomplish that task without the potential for a PAN call, then seriously he needs to recognise his failings and rectify them. This applies equally to those in the LH or RH seat. A professional pilot should be equally skilful at both tasks - automatics or raw data flight.
Unfortunately I am not even sarcastic with the above .....
On another note: Why don't you guys read the report and discover that there were some funny switchings in the whole process. Switchings that eventually lead to having to display the absent skills. It was not necessary, but provoked through some more incompetence. Again, not sarcastic, but realistic.
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I was safety pilot on base training detail. The company wanted the FD to be used in manual flight. This entailed PF calling for HDG's & Spds and LVL CHG, V/S etc. (B757 No speed tape, just ASI). The captain student was from DC8. He was all over the sky and couldn't coordinate hands, brain & mouth. After a few circuits I could see the BTC was getting frustrated with the DEC candidate. He turned to me and said this guy couldn't fly. I suggested turning the FD's off and letting him fly it like a DC8. Round & round we went on rails. Later, in LT he could learn the AFDS, but he could fly. Nowadays, as has been said, a visual circuit on the line becomes an LNAV/VNAV programmed exercise. Indeed, one airline has this as an SOP to help avoid G/A's and using A/T to help control speed. Still they have G/A's from visuals. The piloting skills are diluted due to company philosophy; perhaps this also justifies the company philosophy of diluting the T's & C's of said pilots. If you ain't got the skills why should you be paid for them? An interesting conspiracy theory for PR. Why pay big bucks for button pushers and cause fares to rise? The pax might go for that; until the day when buttons don't solve the problem.
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Having had and used the single cue FD all my career, I don't think I could make a dual cue work for me if I were confronted with one.
It seemed so intuitive to marry up with the little yellow "v."
It seemed so intuitive to marry up with the little yellow "v."
The only way for me to fly it was either with A/P on, or raw data... Grew quite proficient in the latter thanks to the v-bar... 
Wow,to think i got yelled at for turning down a trip in the van at night when the weather was three hundred feet below landing minimums and the airplane had both attitude indicators were u/s.
The first indicator broke three weeks prior and the other one went wobbly and finally stopped working the previous night.Flying partial panel at night to minimums is no fun.
The first indicator broke three weeks prior and the other one went wobbly and finally stopped working the previous night.Flying partial panel at night to minimums is no fun.
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I have flown with a broken attitude indicator. Yes and know it is wrong to do an ILS approach in a twin beach when the airplane part of the bar broke off during a roll because in the 70's nobody cared.
Flying has changed so much through the years but still prefer the 70 era pilots to what we have now. I am sure that era is gone for good.
Now automation is king. Kind of sad isn't it?
Flying has changed so much through the years but still prefer the 70 era pilots to what we have now. I am sure that era is gone for good.
Now automation is king. Kind of sad isn't it?
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We're not saying anything new here but just revisiting the same trail over and over.What will it take for the airlines to realize that you can buy all the automatic "flies by itself" A320's that your dollars,pounds,dinars or yuan can buy, but when the **** hits the fan,you still need yourself a "P-I-L-O-T".AF found this out to their great cost.EVA to their great relief.And as we sit here and debate and argue right now,there are many cockpits out there crewed by pilots who wont take the automation out or ever come out of NAV or switch the FD off or take the AT out.
Pilots must fly the plane.Stick in left hand,thrust levers in right and classic T scan.They must do this first when they join the line.And they must revert to this manual mode of flying once a week or 2 weeks to retain proficiency.When theyre comfortable with the basics,then introduce the automatics,the SOP's and the finer points of menial line flying.But dont omit the fundamental!Honestly,I think 80% of line First Officers have their mind focused on SOP's and just arent trained to focus their attention on whats important("fly the plane").As you line up,the big issue is not SOP's!!!!( eg,FO distracted because CAPTAIN didnt have correct page showing in FMC!!!!!!)The big issue is silent config check and quiet review of actions in case of abort or turns required after EFATO.But nobodys teaching them this anymore.They think the FMC page is more important.The airline training departments are no longer run by pilots but by the bean counters who answer to the insurance companies and the bottom line.Pilots arent on the board.They dont make the decisions like they used to.And besides theres a whole new breed of antiseptic politically-correct pilot thats running things these days.Which is why we get AF447 and the THY crash at AMS.Pilots not flying the plane!Imagine that..a contradiction in terms.
Pilots must fly the plane.Stick in left hand,thrust levers in right and classic T scan.They must do this first when they join the line.And they must revert to this manual mode of flying once a week or 2 weeks to retain proficiency.When theyre comfortable with the basics,then introduce the automatics,the SOP's and the finer points of menial line flying.But dont omit the fundamental!Honestly,I think 80% of line First Officers have their mind focused on SOP's and just arent trained to focus their attention on whats important("fly the plane").As you line up,the big issue is not SOP's!!!!( eg,FO distracted because CAPTAIN didnt have correct page showing in FMC!!!!!!)The big issue is silent config check and quiet review of actions in case of abort or turns required after EFATO.But nobodys teaching them this anymore.They think the FMC page is more important.The airline training departments are no longer run by pilots but by the bean counters who answer to the insurance companies and the bottom line.Pilots arent on the board.They dont make the decisions like they used to.And besides theres a whole new breed of antiseptic politically-correct pilot thats running things these days.Which is why we get AF447 and the THY crash at AMS.Pilots not flying the plane!Imagine that..a contradiction in terms.
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Great post Rat,
And equally true.
Boiling frog syndrome all over again. We're getting too comfortable with sickness and the stench of it all.
Keep those old flying skills up I say. And then make full and proper use of the available automation.
Keep the skills up nevertheless.
Dependency kills.
And equally true.
Boiling frog syndrome all over again. We're getting too comfortable with sickness and the stench of it all.
Keep those old flying skills up I say. And then make full and proper use of the available automation.
Keep the skills up nevertheless.
Dependency kills.
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@ BOAC - a bit of facts on the RJ1H
You were right, In the incidents configuration even an AVRO needs only about 1 - 2 degrees of pitch change with respective advance of thrust levers to climb at 2'000+ fpm as it was a ferry flight. Makes for some funny pitch indications as well, especially at lower speeds. Up to 3 degrees difference to normal.
As for lowering or rising the flaps at speeds around 200 kts which is about the normal configuration speed you may expect pitch changes up to 7 - 9 degrees to keep it level and about 15 - 20 % N1 change to keep speed in level flight.
The stby attitude indicator has a center indication (a dot) where the dot covers about 2 to 2.5 degrees. The scaling on the standby att is not the same as on the EFIS. Seen from the Copilots side it shows a bit of bank due to the parallax.
Additionally, on an ILS you will have a cross-hair pointer superimposed on the standby attitude indicator to show the ILS such as these old VOR pointers in your local C172. It can be VERY DISTRACTING when changin from EFIS to standby to look "through" these pointers.
I've flown the AVRO form the RHS using the stby instruments in the SIM several times. Challenging.
The AVRO is a bit of a bit..h on pitch and roll as it is inherently unstable and needs continous attention and corrections. A hard grip with very fine corrections is what helps me. And I'll have a look all once in a while to the standby's to get the feel for them.
You were right, In the incidents configuration even an AVRO needs only about 1 - 2 degrees of pitch change with respective advance of thrust levers to climb at 2'000+ fpm as it was a ferry flight. Makes for some funny pitch indications as well, especially at lower speeds. Up to 3 degrees difference to normal.
As for lowering or rising the flaps at speeds around 200 kts which is about the normal configuration speed you may expect pitch changes up to 7 - 9 degrees to keep it level and about 15 - 20 % N1 change to keep speed in level flight.
The stby attitude indicator has a center indication (a dot) where the dot covers about 2 to 2.5 degrees. The scaling on the standby att is not the same as on the EFIS. Seen from the Copilots side it shows a bit of bank due to the parallax.
Additionally, on an ILS you will have a cross-hair pointer superimposed on the standby attitude indicator to show the ILS such as these old VOR pointers in your local C172. It can be VERY DISTRACTING when changin from EFIS to standby to look "through" these pointers.
I've flown the AVRO form the RHS using the stby instruments in the SIM several times. Challenging.
The AVRO is a bit of a bit..h on pitch and roll as it is inherently unstable and needs continous attention and corrections. A hard grip with very fine corrections is what helps me. And I'll have a look all once in a while to the standby's to get the feel for them.
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@ Reinhardt
Have to add this: IMHO every airline pilot envies you guys from the military flying. I would have wished for flying military planes but it was not meant for me to be. So I've ventured the civil way.
I would have loved to learn to fly the way you fly. Upside down or at 60 deg bank and +2g in turn. Surely you get the feel for "flying". But then it is only for so and so many of us and it costs not millions but probably billions to finance an airforce. A single fighter aircraft costs as much as a 737 with the more advanced ones with the price tag of a 777 for the system.
Instead of ranting and also a bit bragging about the mil. vs. civ. way - would you offer me training hours on one of these steeds? Need not be an F16 so I can learn how to fly?.
Sometimes it comes to make the best use of equipment - and I'll take what is given to me and will try to excel in that. As for the comments about what could have been done better I agree with your opinion but disagree with the way you have exposed them.
Have to add this: IMHO every airline pilot envies you guys from the military flying. I would have wished for flying military planes but it was not meant for me to be. So I've ventured the civil way.
I would have loved to learn to fly the way you fly. Upside down or at 60 deg bank and +2g in turn. Surely you get the feel for "flying". But then it is only for so and so many of us and it costs not millions but probably billions to finance an airforce. A single fighter aircraft costs as much as a 737 with the more advanced ones with the price tag of a 777 for the system.
Instead of ranting and also a bit bragging about the mil. vs. civ. way - would you offer me training hours on one of these steeds? Need not be an F16 so I can learn how to fly?.
Sometimes it comes to make the best use of equipment - and I'll take what is given to me and will try to excel in that. As for the comments about what could have been done better I agree with your opinion but disagree with the way you have exposed them.
