EASA (=More Hours at Work)
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Serious tiredness. The European legislation is criminal.
Once nodded off locking onto the localizer of 28L at LHR on 4th sector of day 3 of 4-sector LHR-AMS-LHR days with Bishop's overworked bmi crew. (11 years back) And I saw similar events with colleagues. If only passengers knew!!
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I HAVE SIGNED THE PETITION
Housecarl - OK signed the petition nearly 70,000 signatures - EASA will hate that - Democracy isn't something they are familar with (or an evidence base)
Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum
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Further news report, Pilot fatigue 'one of the biggest threats to air safety'.
Speaking as a passenger, while economics does play a tremendous part in the decision of who to fly with, we do have a vested interest in the crew being well rested, just not in a position to make an informed choice as to which carrier has the most 'sensible' policies with regard to fatigue. Think Discorde is exactly right with regard to the whole situation.
Speaking as a passenger, while economics does play a tremendous part in the decision of who to fly with, we do have a vested interest in the crew being well rested, just not in a position to make an informed choice as to which carrier has the most 'sensible' policies with regard to fatigue. Think Discorde is exactly right with regard to the whole situation.
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Nothing will happen until we have a full 738/A319 planted in a hillside somewhere DUE TO fatigue. That is quite simply the rub. Until then necks will be buried deeply. The finger pointing blame-game after the fact will be unparalleled.
My guess is that we'll need a couple of 'em because hull loss number one and hull loss number two will be concluded with "pilot error". Not what led to said error of course. Nothing about the crew's personal circumstances leading up to the event. Nah. Just "pilot error" floating dreamily in the air high above the brussels bureaucrats as they sit down to another taxpayer-funded lunch, deciding how long we need to work for them to keep enjoying it.
Perhaps a global union is just the ticket. Until the leaders of it too cozy up to the fat cats to sell out their proteges for a slice of free.
My guess is that we'll need a couple of 'em because hull loss number one and hull loss number two will be concluded with "pilot error". Not what led to said error of course. Nothing about the crew's personal circumstances leading up to the event. Nah. Just "pilot error" floating dreamily in the air high above the brussels bureaucrats as they sit down to another taxpayer-funded lunch, deciding how long we need to work for them to keep enjoying it.
Perhaps a global union is just the ticket. Until the leaders of it too cozy up to the fat cats to sell out their proteges for a slice of free.
Transparency International
EASA on new FTL as circulated from Oct. 10, 2012:
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Are EASA serious? They are referencing wikipedia to formulate their opinion on aviation safety policy! See Opinion 04-2012.pdf
The safety of 100s of millions of people and the operations of an entire industry are being based on wikipedia!
Zeitgeber (from German for "time giver," or "synchronizer") is any exogenous (external) cue that synchronizes an organism's endogenous time-keeping system (internal clock) to the earth's 24-hour light/dark cycle. The strongest zeitgeber, for both plants and animals, is light. Non-photic zeitgebers include temperature, social interactions, pharmacological manipulation, exercise, and eating/drinking patterns. To maintain clock-environment synchrony, zeitgebers induce changes in the concentrations of the molecular components of the clock to levels consistent with the appropriate stage in the 24-hour cycle, a process termed entrainment. [.[source: Wikipedia].]
Airline executives are probably updating duty hours as we speak on wikipedia, in the hope some EASA plod will cut and paste these into the next EASA policy document!
It's there in black and white....EASA are deriving their opinion from a wikipedia page! Instead of talking to pilots.
I guess the best way to influence EASA policy is to log onto wikipedia and start reducing the duty hours....here is a good link to start with....
Continuous duty overnight - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Thanks for info dusk2dawn
The safety of 100s of millions of people and the operations of an entire industry are being based on wikipedia!
Zeitgeber (from German for "time giver," or "synchronizer") is any exogenous (external) cue that synchronizes an organism's endogenous time-keeping system (internal clock) to the earth's 24-hour light/dark cycle. The strongest zeitgeber, for both plants and animals, is light. Non-photic zeitgebers include temperature, social interactions, pharmacological manipulation, exercise, and eating/drinking patterns. To maintain clock-environment synchrony, zeitgebers induce changes in the concentrations of the molecular components of the clock to levels consistent with the appropriate stage in the 24-hour cycle, a process termed entrainment. [.[source: Wikipedia].]
Airline executives are probably updating duty hours as we speak on wikipedia, in the hope some EASA plod will cut and paste these into the next EASA policy document!
It's there in black and white....EASA are deriving their opinion from a wikipedia page! Instead of talking to pilots.
I guess the best way to influence EASA policy is to log onto wikipedia and start reducing the duty hours....here is a good link to start with....
Continuous duty overnight - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Thanks for info dusk2dawn
Last edited by rexmundi; 1st Nov 2012 at 09:24.
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Are EASA serious? They are referencing wikipedia to formulate their opinion on aviation safety policy!
EASA - Working hard to make working in aviation harder.
or for a more 'stakeholder centric' presentation..
EASA - We're not happy 'till you're not happy.
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Everyday the holes in the cheese will line up. If the last one stays closed we'll rarely here about it.How many are acceptable? Let's say there are 6 holes in total before an accident. Inevitably the last slice is a human, be it an engineer, ATC or pilot. It is very likely that the penultimate one is human also; we work in a chain, as a team. Is it acceptable to be blasé, casual in the early phases and rely upon the alert human or a piece of technology at the end to close the holes? Of course not, but that is what often happens. In the present age, due to cost cutting, the level of experience of those humans in the last 2 slices has been diminished considerably. It is also true that many human functions in the slices earlier on in the chain of events have reduced experience in their operation. If there is an over reliance on the experience of those in the last 2 slices it is beholden on those responsible to make sure those individuals are sharp and upto the task. An old stager with many years at the helm of whatever function can be below par and still notice the errors and close the hole. Take away the years of 'gut feelings' and then make those same people below par and the last 2 holes will line up one day soon.
Aviation has always been about prevention and proaction, not reaction. That is the philosophy of the NTSB. For solely commercial greed that philosophy is being rejected every day by the supposed police forcers of safety, i.e. the various and collective XAA's. Jo-public can take the odd bus crash and train crash, perhaps even a plane crash. Now put a senior politician in the crash and watch the headless chickens run around trying to fix it. How could this have happened? We must make sure it'll never happen again, etc. etc. Who's to blame? And then the usual will be trotted out: it was the organisation, the system, an unforeseen chain of events: never was it the fault of an individual. The fact that the corps of aviation personnel had warned of the failings in the system is poo-poo'd. Then the hero will arise out one of those original groups to stress that it will never happen again and a new system is being designed. The warning concerns of those in the last 2 slices will never be aired; too embarrassing. You hear this scenario many times on Panorama, Air Crash investigation, and recently some accidents on Air Crash Confidential. Yet these do not seem to have any effect on policy.
A few years ago there was a campaign on prune to contact your MP or the name of an interested MP whose name I forget. A newspaper journalist came on asking for help with research. The support written about on prune was enthusiastic, but where did it lead and what did it achieve? It doesn't seem very much. We have MOL charging up the steps in Brussels to argue his case as an owner an airline. He's demanding less regulation so he can crack his whip more, strengthen his feudal kingdom and squeeze more from his ever grateful crumb gathering peasants. Where is ECA in response?
Back to greed. I'm glad I'm out of it.
Aviation has always been about prevention and proaction, not reaction. That is the philosophy of the NTSB. For solely commercial greed that philosophy is being rejected every day by the supposed police forcers of safety, i.e. the various and collective XAA's. Jo-public can take the odd bus crash and train crash, perhaps even a plane crash. Now put a senior politician in the crash and watch the headless chickens run around trying to fix it. How could this have happened? We must make sure it'll never happen again, etc. etc. Who's to blame? And then the usual will be trotted out: it was the organisation, the system, an unforeseen chain of events: never was it the fault of an individual. The fact that the corps of aviation personnel had warned of the failings in the system is poo-poo'd. Then the hero will arise out one of those original groups to stress that it will never happen again and a new system is being designed. The warning concerns of those in the last 2 slices will never be aired; too embarrassing. You hear this scenario many times on Panorama, Air Crash investigation, and recently some accidents on Air Crash Confidential. Yet these do not seem to have any effect on policy.
A few years ago there was a campaign on prune to contact your MP or the name of an interested MP whose name I forget. A newspaper journalist came on asking for help with research. The support written about on prune was enthusiastic, but where did it lead and what did it achieve? It doesn't seem very much. We have MOL charging up the steps in Brussels to argue his case as an owner an airline. He's demanding less regulation so he can crack his whip more, strengthen his feudal kingdom and squeeze more from his ever grateful crumb gathering peasants. Where is ECA in response?
Back to greed. I'm glad I'm out of it.
Last edited by RAT 5; 1st Nov 2012 at 10:35.
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Colgan isn't the best example for fatigue due to FTL's. Poor pay, self management of rest, commuting, crash pads for sure, FTL not sure that roster was cited but i might be wrong
I again repeat i'm not sure that the average UK mainline pilot will be adversely affected, either FRMS or the Unions or both will prevent the extremes of whats being spun at EASA FTL.
I again repeat i'm not sure that the average UK mainline pilot will be adversely affected, either FRMS or the Unions or both will prevent the extremes of whats being spun at EASA FTL.
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Colgan isn't the best example
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I repeat a post of many years ago, and it is still relevant. In various airlines over the years, as duty times got worse & worse in the search of profit, I challenged the financial director and D.Ops, rostering boss and anyone else to work my roster in their cosseted offices. They have radios, Tv, coffee machines, can walk about and chat to friends, take lunch breaks in the park, relax and perhaps achieve 5 hours work out of an 8hr day. All they had to do was work my roster for 1 week to understand what I was talking about. Nobody ever took the challenge. They refused out of fear and thus remain ignorant about what they preach. Nuff said.
In my job, over 37 years, I report for duty, sign in and prepare a flight. I prepare the a/c and then fly the duty. I then close down the flight. At no time, except for perhaps 15 minutes during the turn rounds, am I not performing my duty and being alert and focused; up to 13 hours day/night with time zone changes. There is no lunch break with exercise; there is no stop for a chat by the coffee m/c; there is no radio to soften the background; there is no internet to browse and spend a few moments relaxing, etc. etc. I do not bemoan or regret my career, but I do get mighty pissed off by the desk jockeys and ignorant plonkers telling me they're going to make my life even worse and make their nest better feathered. And don't anyone tell me I should not have taken the job, ands say I knew what I was getting into. That is pure B.S. Over a 37 year career it has changed out of all recognition. It was not to be foretold that it would deteriorate to this level. Hence I baled out. DO NOT LET IT BECOME WORSE. Good luck guys.
In my job, over 37 years, I report for duty, sign in and prepare a flight. I prepare the a/c and then fly the duty. I then close down the flight. At no time, except for perhaps 15 minutes during the turn rounds, am I not performing my duty and being alert and focused; up to 13 hours day/night with time zone changes. There is no lunch break with exercise; there is no stop for a chat by the coffee m/c; there is no radio to soften the background; there is no internet to browse and spend a few moments relaxing, etc. etc. I do not bemoan or regret my career, but I do get mighty pissed off by the desk jockeys and ignorant plonkers telling me they're going to make my life even worse and make their nest better feathered. And don't anyone tell me I should not have taken the job, ands say I knew what I was getting into. That is pure B.S. Over a 37 year career it has changed out of all recognition. It was not to be foretold that it would deteriorate to this level. Hence I baled out. DO NOT LET IT BECOME WORSE. Good luck guys.
Rex, I would have thought that wikipedia, as an uncontrolled, unaudited, open forum for free thoughts was easily an improvement on EASA anyway...
EASA's latest variations to FCL alone places them somewhere outside of the orbit of the 3rd Rock doing their own thing. Add the changes to NAA Part 21 authority being rolled up into a Quango in the middle kingdom... the only thing going for the EU aviation field is that everyone else is actually worse, the US having shot themselves in the foot with the unworkable constraints of ITAR 2011 for defence matters, which now contaminate civil products as well, if only aviation was as good as wikipedia.
"There's nothing more convenient than Wikipedia if you're looking for some quick information, and when the stakes are low (you need a piece of information to settle a bet with your roommate, or you want to get a basic sense of what something means before starting more in-depth research), you may get what you need from Wikipedia. In fact, some instructors may advise their students to read entries for scientific concepts on Wikipedia as a way to begin understanding those concepts.
Nevertheless, when you're doing academic research, you should be extremely cautious about using Wikipedia. As its own disclaimer states, information on Wikipedia is contributed by anyone who wants to post material, and the expertise of the posters is not taken into consideration. Users may be reading information that is outdated or that has been posted by someone who is not an expert in the field or by someone who wishes to provide misinformation. (Case in point: Four years ago, an Expos student who was writing a paper about the limitations of Wikipedia posted a fictional entry for himself, stating that he was the mayor of a small town in China. Four years later, if you type in his name, or if you do a subject search on Wikipedia for mayors of towns in China, you will still find this fictional entry.) Some information on Wikipedia may well be accurate, but because experts do not review the site's entries, there is a considerable risk in relying on this source for your essays.
The fact that Wikipedia is not a reliable source for academic research doesn't mean that it's wrong to use basic reference materials when you're trying to familiarize yourself with a topic. In fact, the library is stocked with introductory materials, and the Harvard librarians can point you to specialized encyclopedias in different fields. These sources can be particularly useful when you need background information or context for a topic you're writing about". - Harvard University Guidance.
EASA's latest variations to FCL alone places them somewhere outside of the orbit of the 3rd Rock doing their own thing. Add the changes to NAA Part 21 authority being rolled up into a Quango in the middle kingdom... the only thing going for the EU aviation field is that everyone else is actually worse, the US having shot themselves in the foot with the unworkable constraints of ITAR 2011 for defence matters, which now contaminate civil products as well, if only aviation was as good as wikipedia.
"There's nothing more convenient than Wikipedia if you're looking for some quick information, and when the stakes are low (you need a piece of information to settle a bet with your roommate, or you want to get a basic sense of what something means before starting more in-depth research), you may get what you need from Wikipedia. In fact, some instructors may advise their students to read entries for scientific concepts on Wikipedia as a way to begin understanding those concepts.
Nevertheless, when you're doing academic research, you should be extremely cautious about using Wikipedia. As its own disclaimer states, information on Wikipedia is contributed by anyone who wants to post material, and the expertise of the posters is not taken into consideration. Users may be reading information that is outdated or that has been posted by someone who is not an expert in the field or by someone who wishes to provide misinformation. (Case in point: Four years ago, an Expos student who was writing a paper about the limitations of Wikipedia posted a fictional entry for himself, stating that he was the mayor of a small town in China. Four years later, if you type in his name, or if you do a subject search on Wikipedia for mayors of towns in China, you will still find this fictional entry.) Some information on Wikipedia may well be accurate, but because experts do not review the site's entries, there is a considerable risk in relying on this source for your essays.
The fact that Wikipedia is not a reliable source for academic research doesn't mean that it's wrong to use basic reference materials when you're trying to familiarize yourself with a topic. In fact, the library is stocked with introductory materials, and the Harvard librarians can point you to specialized encyclopedias in different fields. These sources can be particularly useful when you need background information or context for a topic you're writing about". - Harvard University Guidance.
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More great news, seems like everyone just loves taking the p**s, ryan air just posted £477 mill in profit, but yet pilots have to provide their own water, EASA wants to increase the time you fly, airlines lowering salaries and increases in contracts...
At this rate we will be just regular joe bus drivers (no offence to them!), there has a to be a mass united front of pilots to tell all these "wonderful" ideas to
off... Im sorry but this just gets so under my skin, its unbelievable. Guys spend £100k on training ect, then a small chance of a job, and if you do get one its not a life its survival, where you get other jobs to just get enough to scrape through, forget family life, your never at home and no money... This job is high investment so it should be high returns! Otherwise it not fair...
Pilots always under pressure to cut cost, do more and more ect, the airline chucks in more and more people on board, their proffits keep going while pilots are squeezed...
Unite to make a front to return the perks of the jobs, to make it worth your while... Yes we get paid by the airlines to fly but without us the airlines would be screwed, and go under, you may have the planes, you may have the passenger but if you dont have pilots your not going anywhere! I would even go as far as saying I would LOVE to see a pilot strike for a day for the entire Europe (i know hardly will happen) but that would show the airlines who holds the piece of the string at the end of the day!
At this rate we will be just regular joe bus drivers (no offence to them!), there has a to be a mass united front of pilots to tell all these "wonderful" ideas to
off... Im sorry but this just gets so under my skin, its unbelievable. Guys spend £100k on training ect, then a small chance of a job, and if you do get one its not a life its survival, where you get other jobs to just get enough to scrape through, forget family life, your never at home and no money... This job is high investment so it should be high returns! Otherwise it not fair...Pilots always under pressure to cut cost, do more and more ect, the airline chucks in more and more people on board, their proffits keep going while pilots are squeezed...
Unite to make a front to return the perks of the jobs, to make it worth your while... Yes we get paid by the airlines to fly but without us the airlines would be screwed, and go under, you may have the planes, you may have the passenger but if you dont have pilots your not going anywhere! I would even go as far as saying I would LOVE to see a pilot strike for a day for the entire Europe (i know hardly will happen) but that would show the airlines who holds the piece of the string at the end of the day!
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From the Daily Mail: A warning: Pilot fatigue remains one of the biggest dangers in o
An interesting view from Dr Simon Bennett, Director of the University of Leicester’s Civil Safety and Security Unit. What's even more interesting is that there hasn't been a single comment!
A warning: Pilot fatigue remains one of the biggest dangers in our skies - Mail Online - TravelMail blog
A warning: Pilot fatigue remains one of the biggest dangers in our skies - Mail Online - TravelMail blog
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if a pilot flies 3 consecutive days of 11 or 12 hours FDP, that pilot should be limited or a have a day off, on the fourh day especially after 3 early mornings
Alos FRM training is positive thing
Alos FRM training is positive thing
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I have never understood the concept of working long hours or the so called "split duty" with very little rest and then excusing the whole thing with the rest that comes afterwards. The duty regulations need to be acceptable on a per-day basis. What does it help me that I have rest coming up if I am in fact too tired or overworked right now in the aircraft? If I ever experience an explosive decompression or a V1-cut, then Murphy dictates it will happen at the very end of a 13-hour shift when I woke up 3:45am and I am reduced to a semi-vegetative state.
It's like telling someone to hold their breath for ten minutes and then they can breathe as much as they like for the next three days. Makes no sense.
It's like telling someone to hold their breath for ten minutes and then they can breathe as much as they like for the next three days. Makes no sense.
Last edited by somethingclever; 21st Jan 2013 at 07:14.
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If I ever experience an explosive decompression or a V1-cut, then Murphy dictates it will happen at the very end of a 13-hour shift when I woke up 3:45am and I am reduced to a semi-vegetative state.
in terms of safety it's an error loop.
Last edited by stuckgear; 21st Jan 2013 at 07:26.