Syria A320 mid air collision
Climbing fast in a helicopter at 12kft ? 
What climb rate will be available at a reasonable weight at that altitude?
I feel pretty safe to assume that it will be <<5 m/s.
Climb rate of the Airbus will have been surely significantly higher.
Regarding the speeds I would consider the helicopter almost a stationary 'target'. (350-400kts TAS vs. <100kts). Assuming CAVOK you should be able to see a helicopter the size of a MI-17 at least 5 nm away. That would give you a time window of roughly 45s. In that period the helicopter will have climbed less than 200m. Climbing 5m/s at an approach speed of 200m/s gives you an angle of <1,5°. So if they were flying in a straight line and visibility was OK, climbing of the helicopter shouldn't have been much of a factor.
There must have been other factors involved.
Maybe they were in a turn or blinded by the sun. Otherwise it would be indeed a bit mysterious why they didn't see the helicopter. AoA of the Aircraft itself (3 - 5°) might have been a factor as well.
Will be interesting to see if we ever get an Accident Report on this one!?
What climb rate will be available at a reasonable weight at that altitude?
I feel pretty safe to assume that it will be <<5 m/s.
Climb rate of the Airbus will have been surely significantly higher.
Regarding the speeds I would consider the helicopter almost a stationary 'target'. (350-400kts TAS vs. <100kts). Assuming CAVOK you should be able to see a helicopter the size of a MI-17 at least 5 nm away. That would give you a time window of roughly 45s. In that period the helicopter will have climbed less than 200m. Climbing 5m/s at an approach speed of 200m/s gives you an angle of <1,5°. So if they were flying in a straight line and visibility was OK, climbing of the helicopter shouldn't have been much of a factor.
There must have been other factors involved.
Maybe they were in a turn or blinded by the sun. Otherwise it would be indeed a bit mysterious why they didn't see the helicopter. AoA of the Aircraft itself (3 - 5°) might have been a factor as well.
Will be interesting to see if we ever get an Accident Report on this one!?
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Can't have any sympathy for the helicopter crew killing civillians. This is actually a cover story as the Syrian engineers were told to get the aircraft in a hangar to avoid shelling damage ....it wouldn't fit so they cut half the tail off.
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Will Ryanair now clip the rudders on their planes so they can get more pax on whilst keeping their MTOW below the next eurocontrol threshold? The feasibility has been demonstrated.
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If my memory serves me right, the rudder on the 320 is driven by all 3 hydraulic systems - so they were very lucky this didn't turn into another siouxcity.
And to who is killing who in this war, especially who is paying for what gun and ammo, the last word has not been spoken in this conflict.
Cui bono?
And to who is killing who in this war, especially who is paying for what gun and ammo, the last word has not been spoken in this conflict.
Cui bono?
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Something doesn't add up
Primary source of report is state TV
Heli at FL120?
Main rotor strike? Seems unlikely and who saw it?
A320 carries 200 pax?
No eye witness reports
Here's my theory...
MX were pulling the A320 into the hangar, forgot to open the upper door and sliced the stab off. Then, a helicopter was shot down nearby. The rest is journalism.
Primary source of report is state TV
Heli at FL120?
Main rotor strike? Seems unlikely and who saw it?
A320 carries 200 pax?
No eye witness reports
Here's my theory...
MX were pulling the A320 into the hangar, forgot to open the upper door and sliced the stab off. Then, a helicopter was shot down nearby. The rest is journalism.
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No big deal, eh, FA10?
Hmm. You must be an American. Would you be as disparaging if you knew the pilots were American? Give em a break, dude. Bringing a loaded 320-size jet home after any significant mid-air is to be commended. Jeez.
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Everybody is assuming they hit each other while flying.
But maybe the helicopter was shot down, and in its path plunging towards the ground it collided with the 320... In other words, they hit the airbus from above. This also could explain why they didn't see them.
(And even if they did see them, it is not that easy to make an abrupt evasive maneuver in a split of a second.)
But maybe the helicopter was shot down, and in its path plunging towards the ground it collided with the 320... In other words, they hit the airbus from above. This also could explain why they didn't see them.
(And even if they did see them, it is not that easy to make an abrupt evasive maneuver in a split of a second.)
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If the heli was at that FL to avoid AAA/missiles I think it would be most reasonable to assume that it was precautionary rather than a live fire situation. Otherwise one would certainly have to question the wisdom of the routing of the A320... 
Would an Air France crew have coped?
would it be remiss of me to point out that the composite lugs remained attached?
1. We have no idea of the geometry of this collision
2. The Syrian MI-17 (regardless of its role) would have been painted in a low-vis camo paint scheme -- the intent of which is to make the aircraft difficult to see against various moving backgrounds.
3. The MI-17 would certainly not have its transponder activated in any mode that would permit (civilian) interrogation and response.
4. Well trained and observant crews in "highly visible" aircraft have had mid-air collisions.
One gets a glimmer of why so many of us who used to be regular contributors to pprune don't post much anymore.
I used to despair. Then I took to simply shaking my head in wonder. Now I just smile.
grizz
2. The Syrian MI-17 (regardless of its role) would have been painted in a low-vis camo paint scheme -- the intent of which is to make the aircraft difficult to see against various moving backgrounds.
3. The MI-17 would certainly not have its transponder activated in any mode that would permit (civilian) interrogation and response.
4. Well trained and observant crews in "highly visible" aircraft have had mid-air collisions.
One gets a glimmer of why so many of us who used to be regular contributors to pprune don't post much anymore.
I used to despair. Then I took to simply shaking my head in wonder. Now I just smile.
grizz
One gets a glimmer of why so many of us who used to be regular contributors to pprune don't post much anymore.
I used to despair. Then I took to simply shaking my head in wonder. Now I just smile.
grizz
One gets a glimmer of why so many of us who used to be regular contributors to PPRuNe don't post much anymore.
I used to despair. Then I took to simply shaking my head in wonder. Now I just smile.
grizz
I used to despair. Then I took to simply shaking my head in wonder. Now I just smile.
grizz
One gets a glimmer of why so many of us who used to be regular contributors to PPRuNe don't post much anymore.
I used to despair. Then I took to simply shaking my head in wonder. Now I just smile.
grizz
Last edited by lomapaseo; 28th Sep 2012 at 14:11.
Something doesn't add up
Primary source of report is state TV
Heli at FL120?
Main rotor strike? Seems unlikely and who saw it?
A320 carries 200 pax?
No eye witness reports
Primary source of report is state TV
Heli at FL120?
Main rotor strike? Seems unlikely and who saw it?
A320 carries 200 pax?
No eye witness reports
Main Rotor is what sticks out furthest from any helicopter, all around the helicopter, with the exception of the tail section and tail rotor on most helicopters. Hence, MOST likely point of contact during a midair. (For tandems like Chinook, you are back to Main Rotor is what sticks out furthest from any helicopter, though the nitpickers will point to refueling probes on some helicopters sticking out a bit further).
Your "seem unlikely" looks to be based on ignorance. (Or, you are having some fun and I didn't catch the tone).
Here's my theory...
MX were pulling the A320 into the hangar, forgot to open the upper door and sliced the stab off. Then, a helicopter was shot down nearby. The rest is journalism.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 28th Sep 2012 at 15:16.