Ryanair claim upheld
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: FUBAR
Posts: 3,348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lets not confuse apples with oranges. . . do these awards look at any operational issues ? Er, I don't think so.
As I said on the other thread, I have flown with Spanish FO's, who have told me the standards they saw in Vueling. . . and it wasn't pretty.
So, stop propogating the bullsh1t that your politicians feed you (& that you, sad for you, are naive enough to believe) & just accept that these Irish guys, are more than likely, operating day to day at a higher level of safety than Vueling can even dream about.
And, sad to say, that REALLY is the truth of the matter.
As I said on the other thread, I have flown with Spanish FO's, who have told me the standards they saw in Vueling. . . and it wasn't pretty.
So, stop propogating the bullsh1t that your politicians feed you (& that you, sad for you, are naive enough to believe) & just accept that these Irish guys, are more than likely, operating day to day at a higher level of safety than Vueling can even dream about.
And, sad to say, that REALLY is the truth of the matter.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Planet earth
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Spanish media and AESA-politicians and Ryanair
captplaystation
You are the one who is confusing apples with oranges as this thread is about Ryanair, not Vueling ?
This thread was getting interesting when debating Spanish political and DGAC-AESA versus Ryanair. Lets get back to the topic Ryanair claim upheld.
as you know, The media and politicians started against Ryanair in Spain when they declared 3 fuel emergencies ths same day, dont confuse the issue, that was the trigger. Vueling Captainīs ( and there are very good high standard Captains ) do not have to write reports if they take more than 300 kgs of fuel in Ryanair. Lets not compare Apples and Oranges.
so lets not discuss Vueling on this thread, if you want to debate Vueling lets do it on another thread. For another thread, if you want.
playstation ( for another thread ) you appear to be misinformed, actually Vueling recently hired a lot of pilots from Spanair and Air Nostrum as well pilots from Iberworld and Air Macau, with ex captains flying as FOs, impossible at Ryanair.
Are the Vueling FOīs you flew with ex-Vueling FOīs ? If so are they ( or you as Capt.) bitter that they are no longer Vueling FOīs ? Actually the current SMS manager won a award recently at the Flightsafety Foundation. The FDM and safety culture is at the top of Spain. Fact, the cadet 200 low hour pilots are on the bottom of the seniority list, of this years hiring. I agree that Vueling
Vueling pilots come from very different backgrounds, I have flown with excellent pilots at Vueling, who would be in Iberia if they were hiring. Many airlines have a few that are of a lower standard.
You are the one who is confusing apples with oranges as this thread is about Ryanair, not Vueling ?
This thread was getting interesting when debating Spanish political and DGAC-AESA versus Ryanair. Lets get back to the topic Ryanair claim upheld.
as you know, The media and politicians started against Ryanair in Spain when they declared 3 fuel emergencies ths same day, dont confuse the issue, that was the trigger. Vueling Captainīs ( and there are very good high standard Captains ) do not have to write reports if they take more than 300 kgs of fuel in Ryanair. Lets not compare Apples and Oranges.
so lets not discuss Vueling on this thread, if you want to debate Vueling lets do it on another thread. For another thread, if you want.
playstation ( for another thread ) you appear to be misinformed, actually Vueling recently hired a lot of pilots from Spanair and Air Nostrum as well pilots from Iberworld and Air Macau, with ex captains flying as FOs, impossible at Ryanair.
Are the Vueling FOīs you flew with ex-Vueling FOīs ? If so are they ( or you as Capt.) bitter that they are no longer Vueling FOīs ? Actually the current SMS manager won a award recently at the Flightsafety Foundation. The FDM and safety culture is at the top of Spain. Fact, the cadet 200 low hour pilots are on the bottom of the seniority list, of this years hiring. I agree that Vueling
Vueling pilots come from very different backgrounds, I have flown with excellent pilots at Vueling, who would be in Iberia if they were hiring. Many airlines have a few that are of a lower standard.
Last edited by Jimmy Hoffa Rocks; 23rd Sep 2012 at 18:40.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: FL400
Posts: 398
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It should be pointed out that Ryanair pilots are most definitely not P2F, by definition anyway. I can't argue that the terms and conditions are brilliant and you have to cough for a type rating but P2F it ain't. Please lets stick to the facts. It is a fact that the Spanish ATC environment is appallingly unprofessional and borderline unsafe.
Is it not true however that a "league table", to quote the company's CEO, is published of the various Captains and where they stand with respect to other Captains in terms of extra fuel loaded? Is it also true that if one were to find oneself at the "incorrect" end of the legue table in terms of extra fuel loaded, the Captain may be invited in for a "chat" in the office about his/her fuel ordering?
The league table is published for each base and it's not a question of whether any extra fuel is loaded but, basically speaking, the fuel burnt against flight time. The top 20% get a standard letter from the BC saying "Well done - keep it up chaps", the bottom 20% get a standard letter saying "Just to let you know you are in the bottom 20% - please be a fine fellow and be aware of procedures to minimise fuel burn." If you get either letter it goes on said Captain's personal file. Nobody ever to my knowledge called in for tea and biccies over their position in the league
As regards loading excess fuel above flight plan all that is required is a brief explanation on the VR as to why - in my 5 years with Ryanair so long as you did this you'd never hear anything about it.
Last edited by fireflybob; 23rd Sep 2012 at 22:56.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: FUBAR
Posts: 3,348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In my 6 years there (2002-2008) there was no "league table" in relation to extra fuel carried. There was a "league table" of fuel burned vs fuel planned on nav log (I.E fuel saved) This was done in a rather simplistic way which did not take account of many important variable factors, & of course the Base Capt was invariably in the Top 3 
It was Horlocks, they knew it, we knew it, but. . . . Of course there may now be an "extra fuel" table, but there certainly wasn't in 08, merely "some" Base Capts who were particularly diligent at sifting through the voyage reports to find fault, including one who wanted to criticise those that ARRIVED with more than seemed normal (completely ignoring that these guys had probably really aced it with routings/levels/CDA etc etc
)
It was Horlocks, they knew it, we knew it, but. . . . Of course there may now be an "extra fuel" table, but there certainly wasn't in 08, merely "some" Base Capts who were particularly diligent at sifting through the voyage reports to find fault, including one who wanted to criticise those that ARRIVED with more than seemed normal (completely ignoring that these guys had probably really aced it with routings/levels/CDA etc etc
)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: HK
Posts: 513
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fireflybob
I think you need to take the rose coloured glasses off. No tea and biccies but a letter on the Personal File! All from a "league table" of fuel burn against time! No account of levels achieved or not achieved, weights etc. You would be better saving money by sacking the "person" who makes the league tables, on all the bases, and save much more than the fuel they are bleating about.
Just hope the Irish Authorities read your post, the league tables would be great fodder for the lawyers in court.
I think you need to take the rose coloured glasses off. No tea and biccies but a letter on the Personal File! All from a "league table" of fuel burn against time! No account of levels achieved or not achieved, weights etc. You would be better saving money by sacking the "person" who makes the league tables, on all the bases, and save much more than the fuel they are bleating about.
Just hope the Irish Authorities read your post, the league tables would be great fodder for the lawyers in court.
I think you need to take the rose coloured glasses off. No tea and biccies but a letter on the Personal File! All from a "league table" of fuel burn against time! No account of levels achieved or not achieved, weights etc. You would be better saving money by sacking the "person" who makes the league tables, on all the bases, and save much more than the fuel they are bleating about.
Just hope the Irish Authorities read your post, the league tables would be great fodder for the lawyers in court.
Just hope the Irish Authorities read your post, the league tables would be great fodder for the lawyers in court.
Please do not shoot the messenger! I am only telling you how it is! I agree with your comments about the inefficacy of the fuel league which personally I regarded as a joke. My observation was that those at the top were maybe, ahem, somewhat economical with the truth in recording certain figures. I always said I would rather be at the bottom of the table having made sound decisions with respect to fuel etc.
I am sure the IAA are fully aware of the league table.
Last edited by fireflybob; 24th Sep 2012 at 09:21.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: HK
Posts: 513
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fireflybob
Not trying to teach you to suck eggs, only commenting that you appear to think that a letter on someone's personal file, for being in the bottom 20%, does not equate to "tea and biccies".
Not trying to teach you to suck eggs, only commenting that you appear to think that a letter on someone's personal file, for being in the bottom 20%, does not equate to "tea and biccies".
Join Date: May 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No tea and biccies but a letter on the Personal File! All from a "league table" of fuel burn against time! No account of levels achieved or not achieved, weights etc.
Please do not think for a moment that I am attempting in any way to defend the actions of this Company but, in order to argue the case for change, I think it is important to stick to the facts. I obviously can only, in the main, speak about my own personal experiences.
iceman50, I don't understand what point you are making here - please explain!
Whippersnapper, I would be interested to hear your experiences.
We could argue about fuel league tables for ever but the important issue is whether Commanders feel they are under any pressure in deciding whether or not to carry excess fuel.
I decided to leave the Company after 5 years - luckily I am in a position to take retirement and have an easier way of life. My opinion is that the Company is run under a culture of fear - this was one of the reasons why I decided to leave.
I have many trusted friends and colleagues in Ryanair who are working hard under very challenging circumstances. I feel for them and hope they are able to fight for better days. However, I am not that optimistic. Leopards rarely change their spots.
Not trying to teach you to suck eggs, only commenting that you appear to think that a letter on someone's personal file, for being in the bottom 20%, does not equate to "tea and biccies".
Fireflybob, your experience is at the opposite end of the spectrum to mine.
We could argue about fuel league tables for ever but the important issue is whether Commanders feel they are under any pressure in deciding whether or not to carry excess fuel.
I decided to leave the Company after 5 years - luckily I am in a position to take retirement and have an easier way of life. My opinion is that the Company is run under a culture of fear - this was one of the reasons why I decided to leave.
I have many trusted friends and colleagues in Ryanair who are working hard under very challenging circumstances. I feel for them and hope they are able to fight for better days. However, I am not that optimistic. Leopards rarely change their spots.
Last edited by fireflybob; 24th Sep 2012 at 11:49.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: FL400
Posts: 398
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If anyone can name a Commander that has been fired or in any punished other than with some daft standard letter, please do tell. To my knowledge, it has never happened. Treat the fuel league for what it is: a joke. We know it, they know it. Ignore it.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Nazareth
Age: 53
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Few facts for the discussion:
1. Fuel league is based on actual burn vs anticipated burn. Posted every month by base captain in each base.
2. If you are at the bottom of the list, you will get a default letter telling you that you are on the bottom of the list. If you are at the bottom of the list for 6 months straight, you probably need to re evaluate your approach to saving fuel, most take the league with a pinch of salt whether you are at the top or bottom, others couldn't care less.
3. If you need fuel, take fuel...as much as you may need. If you take excess fuel, tell them why with a valid reason. If you think 1 ton for the kids in CAVOK is valid, you probably need to review the regulations as contingency fuel will cover the kids or "just because" for that matter. If you think not taking extra fuel because you have fuel for a northerly configuration when the airport is using a southerly configuration when the forecast says PROB40 TS, then be prepared to use your skills/knowledge/experience to get you out of the hole you have dug for yourself.
4. Training in Ryanair is taken very seriously. Ask Emirates.
5. Safety record speaks for itself. However, with 2000 flights a day and the media/pprune/other pilots waiting for you to step out of line, something is bound to get flagged sometime or another.
6. Flying with Ryanair as a passenger is a pain in the ass, the make a bundle of money and they are the most hated airline on earth but you have to ask yourself they must be doing something right if they've lasted this long. (and don't say it won't last because people have been waiting for the bubble to burst for over a decade)
1. Fuel league is based on actual burn vs anticipated burn. Posted every month by base captain in each base.
2. If you are at the bottom of the list, you will get a default letter telling you that you are on the bottom of the list. If you are at the bottom of the list for 6 months straight, you probably need to re evaluate your approach to saving fuel, most take the league with a pinch of salt whether you are at the top or bottom, others couldn't care less.
3. If you need fuel, take fuel...as much as you may need. If you take excess fuel, tell them why with a valid reason. If you think 1 ton for the kids in CAVOK is valid, you probably need to review the regulations as contingency fuel will cover the kids or "just because" for that matter. If you think not taking extra fuel because you have fuel for a northerly configuration when the airport is using a southerly configuration when the forecast says PROB40 TS, then be prepared to use your skills/knowledge/experience to get you out of the hole you have dug for yourself.
4. Training in Ryanair is taken very seriously. Ask Emirates.
5. Safety record speaks for itself. However, with 2000 flights a day and the media/pprune/other pilots waiting for you to step out of line, something is bound to get flagged sometime or another.
6. Flying with Ryanair as a passenger is a pain in the ass, the make a bundle of money and they are the most hated airline on earth but you have to ask yourself they must be doing something right if they've lasted this long. (and don't say it won't last because people have been waiting for the bubble to burst for over a decade)
Last edited by Imminent Boner; 25th Sep 2012 at 13:22.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On the night in question regarding the diversions, despite MAD being a known busy TMA and a forecast of thunderstorms in the area , one a/c departed for MAD with just 283 kg above PLOG fuel.
This has less to do with company policy etc etc but more to do with the experience levels in the left hand seat. Some questionable "command" decisions were made that night and this is also inferred in the IAA's "investigation".
This has less to do with company policy etc etc but more to do with the experience levels in the left hand seat. Some questionable "command" decisions were made that night and this is also inferred in the IAA's "investigation".
Last edited by Aldente; 26th Sep 2012 at 07:20.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is the responsibility of the commander to ensure the flight has adequate fuel for the flight..
Even outside the company it is well known that if based at a large central european base, you better not get on the wrong side of Gargamel and Azreal. They will use every opportunity to get you...
on the subject of landing fuel:
"Gargamels own record when it comes to landing with above 1136 kg of fuel in the tanks, is questionable as well"
- BTW why is Shrek not doing delivery flights anymore ???
Even outside the company it is well known that if based at a large central european base, you better not get on the wrong side of Gargamel and Azreal. They will use every opportunity to get you...
on the subject of landing fuel:
"Gargamels own record when it comes to landing with above 1136 kg of fuel in the tanks, is questionable as well"
- BTW why is Shrek not doing delivery flights anymore ???
Last edited by plain-plane; 26th Sep 2012 at 08:07.
