AMR will consider US Airways merger
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misd-again:
More likely a faulty memory. I took early retirement from TWA in 1990, so by 2001 I really didn't care except for two friends who flew for LLC for whatever period of time it was.
He retired from AAL several years after LLC was gone. He was one of a few that the merger placed quite high on the AAL seniority list.
aterpser - You're splitting hairs saying TWA wasn't in BK when the purchase was done. They declared BK the next day.
Your FO buddy didn't upgrade to 767 CA because he suddenly got to fly former TWA routes. TWA LLC last flew in Dec. 2001, or 3 months after 9/11
Last edited by aterpster; 18th Sep 2012 at 14:03.
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I'm an outsider on the TWA/AA merger, but I went through the Northwest/Delta merger.
I always thought TWA pilots were hard done by the integration. TWA was a proud carrier not long removed from the top of the heap. The reception they got from American's union and pilot group was hostile and arrogant.
We Northwest pilots took a bit of a seniority hit when the agreement was reached, but I have to say, a few years after the merger, that the handshake was always out there between us and the Delta pilots, the merger was done as well as I've ever seen one done, and today, the airline is seamless.
I thought from the beginning, and still do, that Northwest had a better flying operation, but Delta is a much better company to work for.
I always thought TWA pilots were hard done by the integration. TWA was a proud carrier not long removed from the top of the heap. The reception they got from American's union and pilot group was hostile and arrogant.
We Northwest pilots took a bit of a seniority hit when the agreement was reached, but I have to say, a few years after the merger, that the handshake was always out there between us and the Delta pilots, the merger was done as well as I've ever seen one done, and today, the airline is seamless.
I thought from the beginning, and still do, that Northwest had a better flying operation, but Delta is a much better company to work for.
The problem stemmed from the fact that APA absolutely refused to have it arbitrated, and in fact required TWA Pilots to waive their seniority protections as a condition of employment.
SWA did the same exact thing with Muse, Morris, and tried to do as much with AirTran. For some reason, AA and SWA pilots always take a hard line approach when it comes to mergers.
Because of that, Congress passed a law preventing that from ever happening again.
I too tend to look at the DL/NW merger as the benchmark on how to properly merge two airlines. It was as seamless as a merger ever could be.
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When AT&T was divested in 1984, they were split into 7 separate companies. Since then, mergers and acquisitions have led to there being only 3 left - AT&T, Verizon and CenturyLink. Will we see a day soon when Americans will only choose between American Airways, Delta and United?
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Date of hire has not been used to integrate seniority list for quite a while. All of the recent arbitrations have gone on a rationed basis by aircraft type. The reason for this is the disparity between pilot longevity for the different merger partners. If both have the same fleet types and length of service then DOH would come into play a little more. But when you have a younger, successful airline buying a bankrupt carrier then the jobs will be rationed based on what jobs each pilot group brings to the table.
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The issue has come up since we do not have mergers between equals in some cases. One carrier is stronger than the other. Progression to the LHS has been quicker for the pilots at the stronger carrier. The pilots at the struggling carrier have faced stagnation or furloughs. They cannot expect to jump to the LHS from furlough or reserve F/O just because they have sat stagnant for 20 years in the RHS. The job they brought to the merger is the seat and the jet they are in, no more.
CAL/UAL is a prime example of this. CAL captains had as little as 5 years on property. UAL had furloughed back to 1999 hires. How do you integrate that? Rationed spots on the list based on aircraft type. UAL has more wide bodies, they get the bulk of those positions. CAL has more narrowbodies, the ratio is more in their favor. Furloughees get put on the bottom below the last active pilot.
In our case at America West/ Us Air the top 517 slots went to Us Air pilots since they had 20 wide bodies. The rest was done on a roughly 3 for 2 ratio after the first 517, 3 East pilots for every 2 West pilots. That was the Nicolau Award that the UsAir East pilots left ALPA over. 7 years later we have no joint contract and they make $25 per hour less than the West pilots, and we wait for a judge to rule whether the company is bound to use the list that they accepted 4 years ago but never implemented in a contract.
CAL/UAL is a prime example of this. CAL captains had as little as 5 years on property. UAL had furloughed back to 1999 hires. How do you integrate that? Rationed spots on the list based on aircraft type. UAL has more wide bodies, they get the bulk of those positions. CAL has more narrowbodies, the ratio is more in their favor. Furloughees get put on the bottom below the last active pilot.
In our case at America West/ Us Air the top 517 slots went to Us Air pilots since they had 20 wide bodies. The rest was done on a roughly 3 for 2 ratio after the first 517, 3 East pilots for every 2 West pilots. That was the Nicolau Award that the UsAir East pilots left ALPA over. 7 years later we have no joint contract and they make $25 per hour less than the West pilots, and we wait for a judge to rule whether the company is bound to use the list that they accepted 4 years ago but never implemented in a contract.
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its always interesting to see the different views in a merger. one airline is up, the other is down, the people ride around in a hole in the ground.
it is generally regarded that the ''east '' pilots and ''east'' routes are the money makers and the ''west'' routes are barely hanging on.
shouldn't the ''best'' pilot be the captain? but, how do we decide who the best pilot is? is it the guy who plays golf with the chief pilot and lets the chief pilot win at golf? is it the guy who kisses the most empenage? is it the guy who flys the best and knows more?
hmmmm
oh, how about the guy who has been there the longest...he should have picked up something by now...just by hanging around for 20 plus years.
so, someone who has been around for 24 years shouldn't be captain over the guy who has been around 7 years?
the argument for how well one airline is doing financially is a cute one. of course in five years the ''doing well'' airline might have been in bankruptcy. things change.
American Airlines was one of the only legacy carriers not having gone bankrupt for the first ten years of the new century or so...and bam...bankrupt and the worst on time record in the industry...pilot strife, furloughs etc...all through the time frame united, usair, and some of the real names of the industry have had to declare bankruptcy.
one day you are up, the next you are down...but years and years of flying experience should count for something.
yup...''east'' pilots wanted date of hire. and why not? DOH worked with other mergers. 20 plus years in the cockpit is still more ''know how'' than 7 years.
oh, and if you think of a way to really know who the best pilot is and grant seniority by that method, I'm all for it.
But it is simply nuts to have a captain with 17 years less experience than the copilot.
it is generally regarded that the ''east '' pilots and ''east'' routes are the money makers and the ''west'' routes are barely hanging on.
shouldn't the ''best'' pilot be the captain? but, how do we decide who the best pilot is? is it the guy who plays golf with the chief pilot and lets the chief pilot win at golf? is it the guy who kisses the most empenage? is it the guy who flys the best and knows more?
hmmmm
oh, how about the guy who has been there the longest...he should have picked up something by now...just by hanging around for 20 plus years.
so, someone who has been around for 24 years shouldn't be captain over the guy who has been around 7 years?
the argument for how well one airline is doing financially is a cute one. of course in five years the ''doing well'' airline might have been in bankruptcy. things change.
American Airlines was one of the only legacy carriers not having gone bankrupt for the first ten years of the new century or so...and bam...bankrupt and the worst on time record in the industry...pilot strife, furloughs etc...all through the time frame united, usair, and some of the real names of the industry have had to declare bankruptcy.
one day you are up, the next you are down...but years and years of flying experience should count for something.
yup...''east'' pilots wanted date of hire. and why not? DOH worked with other mergers. 20 plus years in the cockpit is still more ''know how'' than 7 years.
oh, and if you think of a way to really know who the best pilot is and grant seniority by that method, I'm all for it.
But it is simply nuts to have a captain with 17 years less experience than the copilot.
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yup...''east'' pilots wanted date of hire. and why not? DOH worked with other mergers. 20 plus years in the cockpit is still more ''know how'' than 7 years.
As you and I know from personal experience, there are usually ratios, fences and some version of Allegheny-Mowhawk LPP's (Labor Protective Provisions). I've even had folks given their commuter airline date of hire and put on top of me on the 'A' scale years after I came to work for an ALPA mainline carrier under a 'flow-through agreement'.
I think a date of hire merger is like that mythical National Seniority List and the nationwide SOS (Suspension of Service), sounds great but don't think we'll live to see it. Maybe the Great Airline Pilot Shortage will arrive someday but I've been waiting for it since it was predicted in the FAPA newsletter over three decades ago.
From those heady days just before the 9-11 attacks a wise man presciently wrote here on PPRuNe:
What goes up, must come down. Companies such as TWA and PANAM were top of the tree in the past. Now other companies such as United and AA are at the top. However, and this is my point, noone can be too smug, as the same fate may very well befall those who are currently on top. Only two things are certain in life, death, and a hostie!!
