AMR will consider US Airways merger
TowerDog
A good friend, '85 hire at Ozark (last class there) was in top 300 of TWA list. His adjusted DOH on the combined AA/TWA was 1997-ish. He flew as a Captain ONLY by staying in STL. Anywhere else--F/O, probably 75/76. Unless you consider being in the bottom half "high up the AA list", he isn't. I'm pretty sure a very small percentage of TWA guys are AA wide body captains.
A good friend, '85 hire at Ozark (last class there) was in top 300 of TWA list. His adjusted DOH on the combined AA/TWA was 1997-ish. He flew as a Captain ONLY by staying in STL. Anywhere else--F/O, probably 75/76. Unless you consider being in the bottom half "high up the AA list", he isn't. I'm pretty sure a very small percentage of TWA guys are AA wide body captains.
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koakpilot - if you're going to tell someone else to get their facts straight you might try researching your facts better.
Two-thirds stapled? No. It was about 1200 out of 2300. The other 1100 were feathered into the combined list. I forget the ratio. It was about 5 or 9:1.
Two-thirds stapled? No. It was about 1200 out of 2300. The other 1100 were feathered into the combined list. I forget the ratio. It was about 5 or 9:1.
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He flew as a Captain ONLY by staying in STL. Anywhere else--F/O, probably 75/76
I have no clue where this will end up but it comes as no surprise that AA has announced that they will be closing the STL base in Bankruptcy Court.
Clearing a hassle for AA and pushing the senority issue to a final agreement during the bankruptcy proceedings.
Needless to say someone or the other will end up not being happy.
Going back to the original post, any chance of this new "super airline" learning lessons of the past in terms of finance? Y'know, the simple aim of a successful business - bringing in more money than outgoings? Thought not.
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All of you guys are factually wrong.
46% of the TWA list (starting at AA seniority # around 2500) was integrated at 8:1 (8 AA pilots to 1 TWA pilot.)
54% of the list was stapled below the April 2001 AA new hire class.
Breaking it down by numbers, approximately 900 pilots got integrated, and the remaining 1200 got stapled.
As an AA "native", I have no problem whatsoever acknowledging the fact that APA went WAY out of their way to protect Native AA jobs and a good portion of the TWA pilots got a royal screwing. In fact Congress passed a law preventing that from ever happening again.
46% of the TWA list (starting at AA seniority # around 2500) was integrated at 8:1 (8 AA pilots to 1 TWA pilot.)
54% of the list was stapled below the April 2001 AA new hire class.
Breaking it down by numbers, approximately 900 pilots got integrated, and the remaining 1200 got stapled.
As an AA "native", I have no problem whatsoever acknowledging the fact that APA went WAY out of their way to protect Native AA jobs and a good portion of the TWA pilots got a royal screwing. In fact Congress passed a law preventing that from ever happening again.
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Seniority is always going to be a contentious issue when airlines merge.
What should happen here ?
Airline A has a successfull regional operation, new hires start as FO on B1900 and work their way up via Q400 to the most senior as A320 captains. There are no Boeing aircraft in the fleet.
Airline B operates a medium/long haul all Boeing fleet with 737, 757 and 777. Basically a sound company but struggling financially and in danger of going bust.
A buys B, Sort out the seniority.
What should happen here ?
Airline A has a successfull regional operation, new hires start as FO on B1900 and work their way up via Q400 to the most senior as A320 captains. There are no Boeing aircraft in the fleet.
Airline B operates a medium/long haul all Boeing fleet with 737, 757 and 777. Basically a sound company but struggling financially and in danger of going bust.
A buys B, Sort out the seniority.
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well
I was hired in 1988...my airline then bought two other airlines and went date of hire even though one of the airlines was out of money.
then another airline and mine got together and people hired AFTER I got hired got placed senior to me...so WORSE THAN date of hire.
After another merger, people with 7 years seniority were placed ahead of me when I had 23 years seniority. MUCH worse than date of hire for me.
so, I've seen it all...except of course benefiting me.
I didn't mind date of hire in the first two mergers/acquisitions...but when date of hire suddenly wasn't good enough for the last two...I had to say: WTF?
I was hired in 1988...my airline then bought two other airlines and went date of hire even though one of the airlines was out of money.
then another airline and mine got together and people hired AFTER I got hired got placed senior to me...so WORSE THAN date of hire.
After another merger, people with 7 years seniority were placed ahead of me when I had 23 years seniority. MUCH worse than date of hire for me.
so, I've seen it all...except of course benefiting me.
I didn't mind date of hire in the first two mergers/acquisitions...but when date of hire suddenly wasn't good enough for the last two...I had to say: WTF?
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Pilots are quite a back-stabbing selfish lot when it comes to mergers.
The chap who recently suggested a merit system instead of seniority would have lots of fun trying to resolve a merger.
The chap who recently suggested a merit system instead of seniority would have lots of fun trying to resolve a merger.
aa73
Please show where I was factually wrong, please. My friend around TW #300 applying 8:1 ratio makes him around #4900 (2500 + 8*300). His adjusted DOH went from 85-ish to '97.
And, I'm pretty certain the senior TW Captain was way senior to AA #2500.
GF
Please show where I was factually wrong, please. My friend around TW #300 applying 8:1 ratio makes him around #4900 (2500 + 8*300). His adjusted DOH went from 85-ish to '97.
And, I'm pretty certain the senior TW Captain was way senior to AA #2500.
GF
Last edited by galaxy flyer; 15th Sep 2012 at 13:53.
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Basically a sound company but struggling financially and in danger of going bust.
If an airline goes bust, chapter 7 bankruptcy, then all of its employees are out of work. They may get jobs with other companies. But they will start out at the bottom.
So what is the difference, if a bankrupt airline is bought out of the bankruptcy court because the judge thinks that gives the best return to the creditors? After all, that is the only way the company is being bought. If the judge thought the creditors would be better served by liquidation, then that's what would happen.
Completely different when two healthy companies merge, but that's not the case with AA.
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g.f.:
I was already retired from TWA when this happened. I recall hearing that the senior most 40, or so, TWA pilots were placed very high on the AAL list.
I may have the mechanics of it wrong, but a former F/O of mine became a AAL 767 captain as soon as TWA LLC stopped flying.
I was already retired from TWA when this happened. I recall hearing that the senior most 40, or so, TWA pilots were placed very high on the AAL list.
I may have the mechanics of it wrong, but a former F/O of mine became a AAL 767 captain as soon as TWA LLC stopped flying.
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Roadster 280:
Sort of like AAL and TWA. AAL was healthy, but TWA was not. Nonetheless AAAL purchased TWA directly. TWA was not in bankruptcy at the time of the purchase.
Completely different when two healthy companies merge, but that's not the case with AA.
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aa73
Please show where I was factually wrong, please. My friend around TW #300 applying 8:1 ratio makes him around #4900 (2500 + 8*300). His adjusted DOH went from 85-ish to '97.
And, I'm pretty certain the senior TW Captain was way senior to AA #2500.
GF
Please show where I was factually wrong, please. My friend around TW #300 applying 8:1 ratio makes him around #4900 (2500 + 8*300). His adjusted DOH went from 85-ish to '97.
And, I'm pretty certain the senior TW Captain was way senior to AA #2500.
GF
The seniormost TWA pilot is currently sitting at AA seniority #2912. It was around 2500 when the list came out in 2001.
Last edited by aa73; 17th Sep 2012 at 12:34.
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I'm an outsider on the TWA/AA merger, but I went through the Northwest/Delta merger.
I always thought TWA pilots were hard done by the integration. TWA was a proud carrier not long removed from the top of the heap. The reception they got from American's union and pilot group was hostile and arrogant.
We Northwest pilots took a bit of a seniority hit when the agreement was reached, but I have to say, a few years after the merger, that the handshake was always out there between us and the Delta pilots, the merger was done as well as I've ever seen one done, and today, the airline is seamless.
I thought from the beginning, and still do, that Northwest had a better flying operation, but Delta is a much better company to work for.
I always thought TWA pilots were hard done by the integration. TWA was a proud carrier not long removed from the top of the heap. The reception they got from American's union and pilot group was hostile and arrogant.
We Northwest pilots took a bit of a seniority hit when the agreement was reached, but I have to say, a few years after the merger, that the handshake was always out there between us and the Delta pilots, the merger was done as well as I've ever seen one done, and today, the airline is seamless.
I thought from the beginning, and still do, that Northwest had a better flying operation, but Delta is a much better company to work for.
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aterpser - You're splitting hairs saying TWA wasn't in BK when the purchase was done. They declared BK the next day.
Your FO buddy didn't upgrade to 767 CA because he suddenly got to fly former TWA routes. TWA LLC last flew in Dec. 2001, or 3 months after 9/11.
Your FO buddy didn't upgrade to 767 CA because he suddenly got to fly former TWA routes. TWA LLC last flew in Dec. 2001, or 3 months after 9/11.
aa73
I stand corrected, sir. Not sure if it's my memory of his story or his, shall we say, embellishments. In any case, best of luck on the madness of AA; reminds me of my EAL experience.
I stand corrected, sir. Not sure if it's my memory of his story or his, shall we say, embellishments. In any case, best of luck on the madness of AA; reminds me of my EAL experience.