AF 447 report out
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: france
Posts: 760
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Fullwings
Great ideas which, unfortunately, have to be concisely specified in a mathematical way before they can be implemented in a control system. Maybe this process is slightly more difficult than it appears on the surface? Also, these systems have to function throughout the entire flight envelope, without bringing the law of unintended consequences into play...
Hi Lyman,
Do not forget the transient part of the response of the dynamic system.
Airbus is silent on this subject
and speaks only of the steady state (edit : for memory, if the system is not stable it is never steady...).In the case of an oscillation, we lack the essentials...
As pilots are ignorant of automation they get only a shared information of the limits of the envelop.
We shall have PIO on any axes on any aircraft so long that we decide to ignore the transient part of the response of dynamic systems
, or let it only in the office on ground 
.
Last edited by Jetdriver; 2nd Sep 2012 at 15:46.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 3,093
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No - even on the later FBW models, the rudder is independent from the systems that govern thrust and PFC settings, probably because in aircraft of the low-tail, podded design it can exert too much authority. If there's a yaw aspect to the commanded flightpath then the system will use rudder trim and thrust to maintain it.
It's telling that in over two decades of FBW Airbus models in service, not once has there been an attempt to couple full rudder control into the system. This suggests a technical, rather than cost-driven, challenge to do so.
It's telling that in over two decades of FBW Airbus models in service, not once has there been an attempt to couple full rudder control into the system. This suggests a technical, rather than cost-driven, challenge to do so.
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Kentucky
Age: 77
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
God I Trust, the rest please bring data
http://www.ukintpress-conferences.co...2/cusimano.pdf
Research flights with telemetry were perfromed to understand the stress on verical stabs. And specifically hard over to hard over.
It's a good read as presentations go.
My take away was that one needs be very careful what the certification test really is certifying.
There turns out to be a very significant aerodynamic and structural stress difference between a single hard over and a hard over reversal.
"Don't do it!" please. Apparently even fighters are not designed to take that manuevering input.
Research flights with telemetry were perfromed to understand the stress on verical stabs. And specifically hard over to hard over.
It's a good read as presentations go.
My take away was that one needs be very careful what the certification test really is certifying.
There turns out to be a very significant aerodynamic and structural stress difference between a single hard over and a hard over reversal.
"Don't do it!" please. Apparently even fighters are not designed to take that manuevering input.
Originally Posted by Lonewolf50
I wonder who you are talking to with your listing of some pilots, who knew how to fly and knew their machines.
Originally Posted by Lonewolf50
Who are you talking about?
No, you can't train for every darn eventuality in the air. I have listed just a small fraction of the airmen who were faced with unprecedented occurrences and managed to bring their steed back safely to the ground through quick and correct assessment of the situation and devising the correct solution - all of it based on their thorough knowledge of the flight in general and their machines in particular.
What AF447 crew went through has happened many times before and is bound to happen again as clogging of the pitot probes with freak ice is not sole cause of UAS. There was procedure to be followed. It wasn't. There were ways out without referring to procedure. None was followed.
There is no reason to believe that training received by AF447 crews was not typical of almost any airline. That is to say before AF447 there was no UAS training involving ALT2 in cruise. If we pinpoint this "lack of training" to be the cause of AF447 demise, how on earth are we supposed to explain that all other 330/340 crews survived the ordeal unscathed? By letting our imagination run wild and fantasizing that circumstances of other incidents were radically different from AF447 therefore proclaiming BEA's failure of explaining it at long (instead of just giving it a couple of pages in final report, without details given at press briefings and in interim 2) is cover-up?
Originally Posted by Lonewolf 50
Which takes us back to flying and using a scan pattern, be it a VFR scan,
Originally Posted by bubbers44
do we think we can put 300 hr pilots in any airplane, tell them to only fly on autopilot, let them get thousands of hours watching the autopilot and expect them to be competent if the autopilot fails?
Originally Posted by roulishollandais
All the flying birds fly without rudder nor fin.
Originally Posted by bubbers44
I am saying the metal clamp because of delamination may have weakened the vertical stab
Originally Posted by Brian Abraham
I don't know what all Lymans chatter is about.
More bang for your buck
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: land of the clanger
Age: 82
Posts: 3,512
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Should draw hrs of endless criticism.
Fatal Flight 447: Chaos in the Cockpit
8pm - 9pm
Channel 4 16/Sept
The story of what really happened on June 1, 2009, when Air France Flight 447 from Rio de Janeiro to Paris mysteriously plummeted into the Atlantic Ocean, killing all 228 passengers and crew. It remained a mystery how one of the world's most technologically advanced planes could seemingly just drop out of the sky, until a two-year search finally located the black-box recorders. This documentary reveals what happened on board the doomed airliner as the pilots struggled to understand the catastrophe unfolding before them, and asks what lessons have been learnt from the disaster.
Fatal Flight 447: Chaos in the Cockpit
8pm - 9pm
Channel 4 16/Sept
The story of what really happened on June 1, 2009, when Air France Flight 447 from Rio de Janeiro to Paris mysteriously plummeted into the Atlantic Ocean, killing all 228 passengers and crew. It remained a mystery how one of the world's most technologically advanced planes could seemingly just drop out of the sky, until a two-year search finally located the black-box recorders. This documentary reveals what happened on board the doomed airliner as the pilots struggled to understand the catastrophe unfolding before them, and asks what lessons have been learnt from the disaster.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Channel 4.........where???
and FWIW I don't think it has added anything that hasn't already been covered here.
Pilot in charge when speed readings were lost and autopilot disengaged apparently reacted immediately by pulling back into a climb, something he continued to do for a long time until control was lost. Senior pilot on break called back to cabin took too long to realise what was happening and by the time he had, there was insufficient time left to recover from the stall.
Can't understand why plane was not left to fly in level, straight flight until the pilots had worked out what was wrong. It was stated that from the noise of external airflow the crew should have realised that they were falling out of the sky fast, yet even so the pilot in charge at the time continued with nose up attitude
Last edited by HamishMcBush; 16th Sep 2012 at 20:59.
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
About that C4 programme
I was appalled at most of what Learmount spouted. The only valid comment he made was about the training requirements foisted upon us by bureaucratic regulatory pilots within regulatory authorities.
As for the lawyer - his arrogant comments only serve to confirm the widely held views about that profession.
C4 - I expected better! With such a great track record with C4 News I was expecting something candid, accurate, an account with a great sense of proportion and intellectual analysis. The only person to make sense in the whole programme was Tony Wride.
Disappointed
As for the lawyer - his arrogant comments only serve to confirm the widely held views about that profession.
C4 - I expected better! With such a great track record with C4 News I was expecting something candid, accurate, an account with a great sense of proportion and intellectual analysis. The only person to make sense in the whole programme was Tony Wride.
Disappointed
More bang for your buck
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: land of the clanger
Age: 82
Posts: 3,512
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Given that with Global warming flying around or in high duscharge storms is going to become an increasing phenomenon, what action is the industry taking to protect aircrew against the effects if ozone ?
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Europe
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I thought it was an excellent programme.
Even though we more or less already had been informed what happened it was still quite staggering to observe such apparent incompetence in action. It was like as if the crew had become incapacitated and some of the passengers were trying to fly it instead of a professionally trained crew.
Even though we more or less already had been informed what happened it was still quite staggering to observe such apparent incompetence in action. It was like as if the crew had become incapacitated and some of the passengers were trying to fly it instead of a professionally trained crew.
The only failure in the programme was that it didn't mention that the slack, ill-disciplined AF flight deck culture was clearly obvious from the CVR long before the unreliable airspeed event.
The captain couldn't even acknowledge a simple position report direction correctly.... Let alone give the handover brief properly.
Air France killed 228 people in this wholly avoidable accident. Primarily because the 2 co-pilots were completely incompetent and the captain failed to exercise captaincy.
No doubt this thread's usual hillbilly gibberish will now follow.......
The captain couldn't even acknowledge a simple position report direction correctly.... Let alone give the handover brief properly.
Air France killed 228 people in this wholly avoidable accident. Primarily because the 2 co-pilots were completely incompetent and the captain failed to exercise captaincy.
No doubt this thread's usual hillbilly gibberish will now follow.......
Last edited by BEagle; 16th Sep 2012 at 21:44.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have not read through the whole thread so forgive me if I am repeating something.
As a lapsed PPL holder (due to lack of money) I am obviously short on experience but I can't understand a couple of things.
The aircraft lost its speed indications due to ice build up in the pitot tubes.
Don't these have heaters ? The basic PA28 that I learnt on had pitot heat.
I presume that these aeroplanes have a GPS readout, so why did they not just look at their speed on that.
I really find it hard to understand how pilots with thousands of hours when faced with a stall warner, pulls back on the stick. Isn't it just really basic stuff that if your aeroplane is in a stall situation, without hesitation, push the nose down and apply power ?
Baffled.
As a lapsed PPL holder (due to lack of money) I am obviously short on experience but I can't understand a couple of things.
The aircraft lost its speed indications due to ice build up in the pitot tubes.
Don't these have heaters ? The basic PA28 that I learnt on had pitot heat.
I presume that these aeroplanes have a GPS readout, so why did they not just look at their speed on that.
I really find it hard to understand how pilots with thousands of hours when faced with a stall warner, pulls back on the stick. Isn't it just really basic stuff that if your aeroplane is in a stall situation, without hesitation, push the nose down and apply power ?
Baffled.
Bernie,
They must certainy do have heaters. Although at cruise they are flying at -56c and if mosisture/ice is present they can get overwhelmed. This happened on 447, once the a/c began losing height, the ice actually melted and atleast one of the pitots started to function again. If the crew avtually noticed this, they unfortunetly did not believe its now valid indications.
With regards to stalling. The F/O (PIC) beleived they were going too fast, and losing height, and hence started pulling back. No-one can be sure why he continued to hold the pull back once the stall warner went off. It is possible that the 2 more experience pilots were not aware that the F/O was continuing to pull back on the stick. The program said ozone was present in the cockpit, and maybe this had some incapaciting effect. Just maybe.
They must certainy do have heaters. Although at cruise they are flying at -56c and if mosisture/ice is present they can get overwhelmed. This happened on 447, once the a/c began losing height, the ice actually melted and atleast one of the pitots started to function again. If the crew avtually noticed this, they unfortunetly did not believe its now valid indications.
With regards to stalling. The F/O (PIC) beleived they were going too fast, and losing height, and hence started pulling back. No-one can be sure why he continued to hold the pull back once the stall warner went off. It is possible that the 2 more experience pilots were not aware that the F/O was continuing to pull back on the stick. The program said ozone was present in the cockpit, and maybe this had some incapaciting effect. Just maybe.
Last edited by V_2; 17th Sep 2012 at 09:46.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Grobelling through the murk to the sunshine above.
Age: 60
Posts: 562
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well summarized BEagle.
bernie
The pitot tubes were frozen by extreme icing conditions that the heaters couldn't cope with - temporarily. Your other questions are ones that are still without answers.
bernie
The pitot tubes were frozen by extreme icing conditions that the heaters couldn't cope with - temporarily. Your other questions are ones that are still without answers.