AF 447 report out
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The irony of the situation was that the BEA's AF296 report itself lay most of the cause at the door of Air France (due to serious organisational failings), and had Asseline's lawyers not tried to muddy the waters by making it about Asseline vs. Airbus, then Asseline himself would have probably got away with not much more than a slap on the wrist.
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A kid who practiced for say an hour a day for a few weeks on a toy simulator on some game station would most likely have a better instinctive reaction to the stall warning than the hero of our story did.
4. It is absolutely true that a true ace pilot, one that committed his whole life to aviation, could NOT be affected by even most illogical configuration of plane controls. Even if someone/something all of a sudden re-wired the whole damn sidestick backwards, a guy like that would figure it out in a few seconds, because he committed his whole life into merging his mind and body with every flying device he could put his hands on.
With all due respect, I find your use of "aces/wolves" versus "vegetables" not only insulting but incredibly distasteful. It's a lot more complicated than that.
8. If you think vegatable pilots are bad, imagine vegetable engineers, people who never had any desire to create new things, and are perfectly happy to do little besides playing office politics. Yes – the corporate engineering is full of those...
9. I have never worked for Airbus, so I don't know how bad (or good) things are over there. But the companies I worked for, the things that I have seen made my skin crawl.
...
Generally, one vegetable engineer, most likely the boss's top ass-kisser would come up with the idea in order to promote his position, then convince everyone that that's what the boss wanted. Then everyone goes along and does not dare to question things. Not daring becomes its own logic and so it goes.
...
Generally, one vegetable engineer, most likely the boss's top ass-kisser would come up with the idea in order to promote his position, then convince everyone that that's what the boss wanted. Then everyone goes along and does not dare to question things. Not daring becomes its own logic and so it goes.
As for Airbus, my old Software Engineering Prof (RIP) - who was a dyed-in-the-wool FBW sceptic - visited Toulouse in 1994 and came away impressed. Mind you, he still held their feet to the fire in public...
Let me add a few points (from an engineer's perspective – If I am saying something stupid – I do expect a very strong – WTF are you talking about – see below).
.....
imagine vegetable engineers, people who never had any desire to create new things
.....
imagine vegetable engineers, people who never had any desire to create new things
Thus in this case it's only imagination
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Accoustic signals from ULB
Page 83 Final report
I don't find any explications about why the signals were not detected
I don't find any in the BEA report about investigations on this problem (if the beacons were active at time .. or if they find some defects for explain the failure of detection ...)
The first search phase aimed at detecting and locating the acoustic signals transmitted
by the Underwater Locator Beacon (ULB) fitted on each flight recorder
(8)
. As a priority,
the aeroplane’s planned flight path as well as the greatest possible area inside the
40 NM circle was swept by two Towed Pinger Locators (TPL)
(9)
.
No signal from either of the beacons was detected by the sensors deployed in the
area despite TPL passing by, on two occasions, not far from the debris field, on 22
and 23 June 2009.
Sonar imaging systems with the ability to recognise components on the sea bed were
deployed during the phases that followed.
by the Underwater Locator Beacon (ULB) fitted on each flight recorder
(8)
. As a priority,
the aeroplane’s planned flight path as well as the greatest possible area inside the
40 NM circle was swept by two Towed Pinger Locators (TPL)
(9)
.
No signal from either of the beacons was detected by the sensors deployed in the
area despite TPL passing by, on two occasions, not far from the debris field, on 22
and 23 June 2009.
Sonar imaging systems with the ability to recognise components on the sea bed were
deployed during the phases that followed.
I don't find any in the BEA report about investigations on this problem (if the beacons were active at time .. or if they find some defects for explain the failure of detection ...)
Last edited by jcjeant; 12th Jul 2012 at 16:26.
Originally Posted by soylentgreen
upon re-reading my words, they did come across snarky and like a cheap shot, so I apologize.
Originally Posted by soylentgreen
I said "it would be fun" and "The outcome would be quite interesting."
Originally Posted by soylentgreen
Some things we can: training and machines. I'm simply saying that
we should think of the big picture here, and improve the things that we do control.
we should think of the big picture here, and improve the things that we do control.
Originally Posted by soylentgreen
How many miles do we need google's robot cars to have accident-free before we trust them?
Originally Posted by soylentgreen
The "naturalistic" study shows that 1 of 37 crews in similar situations crashed. As I mentioned, that's such a small sample size that we can't say whether the actual percentage is closer to 0% or closer to 10%.
Now if we apply numerology, and boldly and deceptively call it statistics, to the sample provided by BEA in interim 3 by assuming that survival means no problem while crash means manual handling of the aeroplane deficiency, we'd come to conclusion that it's not such a big deal if just 3% of crews are unable to control the aeroplane when hit with UAS. Of course it is deeply wrong conclusion and you were on the right track when you mentioned "survived for wrong reasons". To discover what were wrong reasons, we need detailed case studies, not just statistical analysis of contributing factors. BEA has analyzed 13 out of 36 discovered cases of UAS and added one which couldn't be analyzed; case of TAM 332 on Nov 12 2003. Both pilots pulled as airspeed was lost but then pushed when stall warning went off so we need to resolve why some pilots perceived and understood the warning while some didn't.
Chapter 1.17.1.5.4 is also pretty damning.
Originally Posted by Nemrytter
It's not yet published but should be in a month or two.
Originally Posted by deSitter
At what point was the "deep stall" unrecoverable?
Originally Posted by deSitter
What exactly is a deep stall?
Originally Posted by deSitter
Was the trim issue the main obstacle to recovery?
Originally Posted by triple bravo
every significant "stick down" input was followed by a) THS forward movement, b) pitch decrease and c) airspeed increase.
Originally Posted by notfred
Is this true for other modern jets?
Originally Posted by Sadpole
We are fooling ourselves that human beings are capable of logical reasoning
Originally Posted by Sadpole
true that a true ace pilot, one that committed his whole life to aviation, could NOT be affected by even most illogical configuration of plane controls.
Originally Posted by SadPole
the whole system was demonstrated to be a complete failure
Originally Posted by SadPole
imagine vegetable engineers, people who never had any desire to create new things,
Originally Posted by Triple Bravo
mishandling of the Mulhouse case
Originally Posted by TripleBravo
Why are certification requirements not adapted to recent findings?
Originally Posted by TripleBravo
They weren't suicidal, they fought for their own lifes as well and sadly lost.
Originally Posted by TripleBravo
How come that flying manually is something not much appreciated in the industry?
Originally Posted by TripleBravo
The captain wasn't in his seat, and due to his CV I'm convinced he would have had the abilities to handfly without major problems.
Originally Posted by DozyWannabe
Then please explain why there are at least five dead astronauts and cosmonauts who were lost in training accidents.
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It does not enter my mind to apologize to BOAC. He belitteled my first post ever on Pprune, and I have seen him do it to others in many threads on various topics. He thinks he knows it all. I have always detested such persons.
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Who is so dumb, with only 20 posts, to argue with the king of Pprune with more than 15.000 posts. Only me is that stupid. When does he sleep? Time for family? Let alone, when does he have time to fly for a living? I know the type.
And even, if BOAC retired when he startet posting, it is like asking the Wright brothers to comment on the 787.
And even, if BOAC retired when he startet posting, it is like asking the Wright brothers to comment on the 787.
Last edited by svhar; 14th Jul 2012 at 01:35.
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svhar,
I'm still a (non-piloting) newbie here, and I've been flapping my lips here for 200 posts in a quest for knowledge, no doubt revealing my utter unsuitibility to sit at this table. Please note that Clandestino, whom I often don't wholly agree with, has never once singled me out for public (or private) humiliation. Why not?
So you are forced to consider that an interaction between two people has two contributors, and one of them is you. Anyway, the problem will doubtless be resolved when the moderators realize that you're resorting to deeply sarcastic and personal remarks, noticeably lacking in any on topic content.
I'm still a (non-piloting) newbie here, and I've been flapping my lips here for 200 posts in a quest for knowledge, no doubt revealing my utter unsuitibility to sit at this table. Please note that Clandestino, whom I often don't wholly agree with, has never once singled me out for public (or private) humiliation. Why not?
So you are forced to consider that an interaction between two people has two contributors, and one of them is you. Anyway, the problem will doubtless be resolved when the moderators realize that you're resorting to deeply sarcastic and personal remarks, noticeably lacking in any on topic content.
DOVE
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BOAC
have nothing to say to svhar?
No "secret" to reveal?
And I refuse to believe you are so venal as to give your opinion only on payment.
I repeat always three, four, five ... times my advice to my students.
If we want to reform this "kind of aviation" with our experience we must not stop withstand the exuberance of youth who want to follow in our footsteps.
have nothing to say to svhar?
No "secret" to reveal?
And I refuse to believe you are so venal as to give your opinion only on payment.
I repeat always three, four, five ... times my advice to my students.
If we want to reform this "kind of aviation" with our experience we must not stop withstand the exuberance of youth who want to follow in our footsteps.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Originally Posted by doves
have nothing to say to svhar?
The rest leaves me bewildered. Can we return to the thread topic?
Last edited by BOAC; 14th Jul 2012 at 17:04.
Can we return to the thread topic?
This thought seems to be worth comment within the context of the accident under discussion.
3. For this reason, there is something fundamentally wrong, I think, with counting hours of watching autopilot do its thing as “flying experience.”
With the emergence of present day-autopilots the process of judging pilots' experience should have been redefined long ago.
One way to do it would be to count takeoffs and landings, which would promote pilots who did time on smaller planes long before they were allowed to touch commercial jets.
However, I do not see pilots talking about changing that system. Maybe they should.
With the emergence of present day-autopilots the process of judging pilots' experience should have been redefined long ago.
One way to do it would be to count takeoffs and landings, which would promote pilots who did time on smaller planes long before they were allowed to touch commercial jets.
However, I do not see pilots talking about changing that system. Maybe they should.
This isn't the only accident where two pilots were not enough, due to a variety of factors.
Also, I find "takeoffs and landings" a bit misleading, since the entire terminal phase, and into landing, is a more apt area for needing experience. Wrecks in terminal phase are often marked by failure to reach the runway.
As to "takeoff," I'd want to address the entire departure phase for experiential basis.
AF447 happened during cruise, which is not the most common phase for mishap.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 14th Jul 2012 at 17:33.
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Quote:
Quote:
I know the AL defeats Reselect, but what does it do with an AP left ON?
It turns it OFF and latches it OFF until ground crews perform maintenance.
BBB... Right....but the A/P appears to have been "ON" throughout? Isn't that potentially lethal?
Originally Posted by Lyman
the A/P appears to have been "ON" throughout? Isn't that potentially lethal?
Originally Posted by Organfreak
I beg Clandestino's pardon
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Training
Contacted:
How about not trained at all?
I have never been in or seen a (high altitude) full stall in the sim. Only the customary straight-and-level bleed the speed off till the buffet comes.
Quote from Boeing'sAerodynamic Principles of Large-Airplane Upsets
I'm not so sure this is sufficiently trained into us.
I have never been in or seen a (high altitude) full stall in the sim. Only the customary straight-and-level bleed the speed off till the buffet comes.
Quote from Boeing'sAerodynamic Principles of Large-Airplane Upsets
A stall must not be confused with the stall warning that alerts the pilot to an approaching stall. Recovery from an approach to stall is not the same as a recovery from an actual stall. An approach to stall is a controlled flight maneuver; a stall is an out-of-control, but recoverable, condition.
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High altitude full stall recovery training is making its way into the sims. I did it last week.
In the Boeings you have to work at it to keep it stalled, but we were doing a falling leaf, descending at 11000 ft/min, 10 degrees nose up at firewall thrust.
The recovery required 20-30 degrees nose down and lots of patience (and altitude) waiting for the speed to build to the point where the stall to became a nose down unusual attitude you could fly out of without entering a secondary stall.
I do not have any time in Airbuses. I can say that all you folks who are saying it should not/would not happen and to whom it would not have happened were not (thankfully) there in the middle of the night in the middle of the ocean in the middle of the weather dealing with contradictory information in a situation that went from straight and level to deadly in the span of a few breaths.
I bow to your mad airmanship skills.
In the Boeings you have to work at it to keep it stalled, but we were doing a falling leaf, descending at 11000 ft/min, 10 degrees nose up at firewall thrust.
The recovery required 20-30 degrees nose down and lots of patience (and altitude) waiting for the speed to build to the point where the stall to became a nose down unusual attitude you could fly out of without entering a secondary stall.
I do not have any time in Airbuses. I can say that all you folks who are saying it should not/would not happen and to whom it would not have happened were not (thankfully) there in the middle of the night in the middle of the ocean in the middle of the weather dealing with contradictory information in a situation that went from straight and level to deadly in the span of a few breaths.
I bow to your mad airmanship skills.