Air Japan/ANA incident at NRT
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Since only one airplane can occupy the same airspace at the same time, and thunderstorms rarely stay constant, the weather your flight experienced probably was, to some unknown degree, different than the airplane directly ahead of or behind you flight into Madrid.
Since you're not giving us any additional information (what did the crew know and when did they know it?) your story lacks context. There's always a first, and last, flight when an airport closes.
I've been the first guy to go around, been the first guy to refuse takeoff, last guy to land, and have landed when other flights have diverted/gone around. It just depends on the situation that I'm dealing with, and not what the guy ahead of, or behind me, is experiencing.
Since you're not giving us any additional information (what did the crew know and when did they know it?) your story lacks context. There's always a first, and last, flight when an airport closes.
I've been the first guy to go around, been the first guy to refuse takeoff, last guy to land, and have landed when other flights have diverted/gone around. It just depends on the situation that I'm dealing with, and not what the guy ahead of, or behind me, is experiencing.
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Since only one airplane can occupy the same airspace at the same time, and thunderstorms rarely stay constant, the weather your flight experienced probably was, to some unknown degree, different than the airplane directly ahead of or behind you flight into Madrid.
Since you're not giving us any additional information (what did the crew know and when did they know it?) your story lacks context. There's always a first, and last, flight when an airport closes.
I've been the first guy to go around, been the first guy to refuse takeoff, last guy to land, and have landed when other flights have diverted/gone around. It just depends on the situation that I'm dealing with, and not what the guy ahead of, or behind me, is experiencing.
Since you're not giving us any additional information (what did the crew know and when did they know it?) your story lacks context. There's always a first, and last, flight when an airport closes.
I've been the first guy to go around, been the first guy to refuse takeoff, last guy to land, and have landed when other flights have diverted/gone around. It just depends on the situation that I'm dealing with, and not what the guy ahead of, or behind me, is experiencing.
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that should be perfectly repairable on a 9 year old B763, depending upon any damage to the landgear.
The "First Choice" one mentioned earlier was 15 years old at the time of similar damage and was repaired and back in service in 2 months including a temporary hangar being build to effect the repair.
The "First Choice" one mentioned earlier was 15 years old at the time of similar damage and was repaired and back in service in 2 months including a temporary hangar being build to effect the repair.
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Alright. I suppose I can expand on my thoughts , purely for entertainment purposes as what I say is not of any importance nor holds any weight of course. Allow me to indulge myself a bit. Some of you when asked to consider caution and not to be too gung ho in the face of an increased danger in proceeding further, are apparently personally offended.
I remember a certain Korean Airlines 747 landing in Kimpo in fog. If memory serves me they were advised that all other flights had diverted and a landing would be ill advised at that time. But they went ahead anyway. Killed about a dozen people in the ensuing crash and fire. The flight crew were uninjured and took responsibility by refusing to leave the aircraft. I tip my hat to them because that is certainly bravery of the highest order. To perish willfully as a way of taking full responsibility. Not something I could do. OF course they felt confident that they would be able to land safely. But confidence does not reduce any present danger. I just wonder, how much better it would be for all if a stricter guideline would be adhered to regarding when NOT to proceed with one's approach and abandon the landing attempt.
quote from wiki: Gimpo International Airport - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In 1980, a Korean Air Lines 747 landed short of the runway, ripping off all main landing gear, causing the aircraft to skid to a stop on the nose wheel and outer 2 engines starting a fire. 15 of the 226 total occupants were killed, including the First Officer and Captain, who refused to leave the aircraft after the crash.
further info:
ASN Aircraft accident Boeing 747-2B5B HL7445 Seoul-Gimpo (Kimpo) International Airport (SEL)
In my Madrid landing (was a Swissair Dc9 from Geneva to Madrid) it was late afternoon and I remember circling above Madrid. Dark clouds below while we were still in bright sunshine.
The captain came on and announced that all other flights had elected to divert but we will be making one attempt to see how it was. He warned of strong turbulence. And down we went through the clouds. It got so dark it was pitch black and at a few points lightning was striking close to the aircraft.
The turbulence was indeed as he said, very strong. There was a few down drafts as well as updrafts. I wasn't enjoying this and neither was anyone else I am sure. Finally , thank goodness a particularly strong updraft shot us straight up right back into the sunshine. The captain came on to say that conditions were too rough and we would be diverting to Barcelona.
Upon arrival at Barcelona I could see that the airport was literally swamped with aircraft. Almost all were just sitting there unserviced. We had our doors open. There was no ground service of any kind. We would not be going into the terminal. Two, almost three hours went by and finally we headed back to Madrid. The captain came on to reassure us that the weather was clear all the way, and it was. Very smooth flying as the storm had passed.
I actually had asked him while on the ground in Barcelona why he had made that attempt when everyone else had diverted. He didn't answer me (probably thought me a fool ) . I suppose he wanted to avoid just such a situation. A much longer workday, stranded at Barcelona without ground service. He felt the danger at Madrid to be manageable , at least for one attempt.
I felt that , given everyone else had diverted , and he knew that as he had said so in his announcement. That he should have diverted as well. No need to make an attempt.
We may have gotten over the piano keys even and then over-ran or any number of other unhappy possibilities given the atrocious weather. It was atrocious. A truly large thunderstorm right over the airport.
How many of you , honestly , would make such an attempt and how many of you would not. I want to fly with the would nots if I may, thank you.
I remember a certain Korean Airlines 747 landing in Kimpo in fog. If memory serves me they were advised that all other flights had diverted and a landing would be ill advised at that time. But they went ahead anyway. Killed about a dozen people in the ensuing crash and fire. The flight crew were uninjured and took responsibility by refusing to leave the aircraft. I tip my hat to them because that is certainly bravery of the highest order. To perish willfully as a way of taking full responsibility. Not something I could do. OF course they felt confident that they would be able to land safely. But confidence does not reduce any present danger. I just wonder, how much better it would be for all if a stricter guideline would be adhered to regarding when NOT to proceed with one's approach and abandon the landing attempt.
quote from wiki: Gimpo International Airport - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In 1980, a Korean Air Lines 747 landed short of the runway, ripping off all main landing gear, causing the aircraft to skid to a stop on the nose wheel and outer 2 engines starting a fire. 15 of the 226 total occupants were killed, including the First Officer and Captain, who refused to leave the aircraft after the crash.
further info:
ASN Aircraft accident Boeing 747-2B5B HL7445 Seoul-Gimpo (Kimpo) International Airport (SEL)
In my Madrid landing (was a Swissair Dc9 from Geneva to Madrid) it was late afternoon and I remember circling above Madrid. Dark clouds below while we were still in bright sunshine.
The captain came on and announced that all other flights had elected to divert but we will be making one attempt to see how it was. He warned of strong turbulence. And down we went through the clouds. It got so dark it was pitch black and at a few points lightning was striking close to the aircraft.
The turbulence was indeed as he said, very strong. There was a few down drafts as well as updrafts. I wasn't enjoying this and neither was anyone else I am sure. Finally , thank goodness a particularly strong updraft shot us straight up right back into the sunshine. The captain came on to say that conditions were too rough and we would be diverting to Barcelona.
Upon arrival at Barcelona I could see that the airport was literally swamped with aircraft. Almost all were just sitting there unserviced. We had our doors open. There was no ground service of any kind. We would not be going into the terminal. Two, almost three hours went by and finally we headed back to Madrid. The captain came on to reassure us that the weather was clear all the way, and it was. Very smooth flying as the storm had passed.
I actually had asked him while on the ground in Barcelona why he had made that attempt when everyone else had diverted. He didn't answer me (probably thought me a fool ) . I suppose he wanted to avoid just such a situation. A much longer workday, stranded at Barcelona without ground service. He felt the danger at Madrid to be manageable , at least for one attempt.
I felt that , given everyone else had diverted , and he knew that as he had said so in his announcement. That he should have diverted as well. No need to make an attempt.
We may have gotten over the piano keys even and then over-ran or any number of other unhappy possibilities given the atrocious weather. It was atrocious. A truly large thunderstorm right over the airport.
How many of you , honestly , would make such an attempt and how many of you would not. I want to fly with the would nots if I may, thank you.
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I actually had asked him while on the ground in Barcelona why he had made that attempt when everyone else had diverted. He didn't answer me (probably thought me a fool ) . I suppose he wanted to avoid just such a situation. A much longer workday, stranded at Barcelona without ground service. He felt the danger at Madrid to be manageable , at least for one attempt.
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decision making one pilots model .. weather.
Before departure, is the destination (and alternate) within forecast weather limits at the proposed time of arrival ? answer yes .. despatch.
Answer no ? when are the conditions forecast to improve .. consider delay.
Destination out of limits, alternate (and now a second alternate) OK, depart and check weather en route for destination, still below limits continue to alternate no approach.
Destination within limits before final approach fix WITH NO APPARENT SEVERE WEATHER HAZARD OBSERVED, an approach may be made initially to FAF, if still within limits, continue (maybe) to minima.. land/go around as appropriate to the conditions, if go-around, check fuel/scare factor and divert.
The critical factor is "extra" fuel, that is your thinking time.
Something else worth considering is planning to your "1st alternate" and making the original destination an alternate.
Had an experience where destination was forecast to be unusable due high winds, checked the weather en-route and it was as forecast, decided to divert at top of descent, 1st alternate not available due lack of ramp space (all the other diversions) second alternate likewise !!... third alternate was fine though.
food for thought at least.
Answer no ? when are the conditions forecast to improve .. consider delay.
Destination out of limits, alternate (and now a second alternate) OK, depart and check weather en route for destination, still below limits continue to alternate no approach.
Destination within limits before final approach fix WITH NO APPARENT SEVERE WEATHER HAZARD OBSERVED, an approach may be made initially to FAF, if still within limits, continue (maybe) to minima.. land/go around as appropriate to the conditions, if go-around, check fuel/scare factor and divert.
The critical factor is "extra" fuel, that is your thinking time.
Something else worth considering is planning to your "1st alternate" and making the original destination an alternate.
Had an experience where destination was forecast to be unusable due high winds, checked the weather en-route and it was as forecast, decided to divert at top of descent, 1st alternate not available due lack of ramp space (all the other diversions) second alternate likewise !!... third alternate was fine though.
food for thought at least.
the answer has to be that we are all irresponsible thrill seekers with a death wish suffering from get thereitis, that don't mind risking the lives of a couple hundred people just to demonstrate the we are the heroes that didn't divert that day,
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Being told how to do our jobs by a guy who's not even a pilot and then trying to explain to those too stupid to understand satire, irony or sarcasm are good reasons for us not to venture into the lair of R&N, where the basic premise of 'professional' and 'pilot' seems absent. I'm sure some people comment here just to increase their post count because they certainly have nothing to add to the discussion.
EXLEFTSEAT,
I appreciate your attempts to edit the original title and understand it is a limitation of the forum software. Thanks.
EXLEFTSEAT,
I appreciate your attempts to edit the original title and understand it is a limitation of the forum software. Thanks.
What to do to help prevent this type of incident becoming what Narita becomes known for?
Here is another observation, if your English reading comprehension was any good you would notice zzzz blah blah
i was responding to (i think) fratemate who thought they'd add the nationality of the pilots when it was unnecessary, that's all, regardless of whether you came to their 'defense' or not.
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Simple solution for Narita's crosswinds - put the entire airport on a rotating table and pivot the runway's into the wind for each takeoff and landing.
Viola, no crosswinds.
Now if we could just get guys to resist pushing forward on the yoke during bounces.
Viola, no crosswinds.
Now if we could just get guys to resist pushing forward on the yoke during bounces.