Distracted crew let Q400 descend towards terrain
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I had to admit that the final 'everything failed' scenario was the closst to the avionics fits I had been used to during my 3000 hours in the RAF! Not sure what lessons to draw from that
Some of the automation whingers around here should spend a few years in Africa hacking around the game reserves in a DHC6-200 with a basic panel and an autopilot that can just about maintain straight & level on a good day.
DOVE
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Back to the the right topic
Dear Sirs
Like Ancient Greek wrote in post n° 81 I’m afraid that this thread is rapidly drifting from its opening theme.
I do not think it's so relevant that the flight crew in question possessed or not good hand flying skills.
As in the following cases:
Scandinavian Airlines Flight 933 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Eastern Air Lines Flight 401 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
China Airlines Flight 006 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(And who knows how many more!?)
there was, from the captain of the flight, an abdication of its fundamental mission, which is the safe conduct of flight.
We all know that the most important phase of a failure is the moment of its perception.
The crew is caught by the queen of battles: THE SURPRISE.
Ulysses wanted his crew members to put wax ear plugs in ordere not to be enthralled by the Sirens song.
I have always taught during my training that the first thing that a commander should do in case of failure, is ... NOTHING!.
He has to make sure that someone will aviate the plane: "I have control" (or if necessary as in this case "You have control", using possibly all the automatics).
And, if it is not urgent to reunite with the shadow;
Join a holding;
Identify the problem;
Assess the situation;
Intervene;
And at last: go to land.
Like Ancient Greek wrote in post n° 81 I’m afraid that this thread is rapidly drifting from its opening theme.
I do not think it's so relevant that the flight crew in question possessed or not good hand flying skills.
As in the following cases:
Scandinavian Airlines Flight 933 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Eastern Air Lines Flight 401 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
China Airlines Flight 006 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(And who knows how many more!?)
there was, from the captain of the flight, an abdication of its fundamental mission, which is the safe conduct of flight.
We all know that the most important phase of a failure is the moment of its perception.
The crew is caught by the queen of battles: THE SURPRISE.
Ulysses wanted his crew members to put wax ear plugs in ordere not to be enthralled by the Sirens song.
I have always taught during my training that the first thing that a commander should do in case of failure, is ... NOTHING!.
He has to make sure that someone will aviate the plane: "I have control" (or if necessary as in this case "You have control", using possibly all the automatics).
And, if it is not urgent to reunite with the shadow;
Join a holding;
Identify the problem;
Assess the situation;
Intervene;
And at last: go to land.
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If people here think it is acceptable to never be allowed to hand-fly, and worse, think it is SAFE, then I fear for the future of air safety.
I hope those whose airlines think it is acceptable to hand-fly a sim once every 3 months change their minds, and soon.
Basic airmanship? Non-existent from reading this thread! AF447 won't be the last, I'm sure.
I hope those whose airlines think it is acceptable to hand-fly a sim once every 3 months change their minds, and soon.
Basic airmanship? Non-existent from reading this thread! AF447 won't be the last, I'm sure.
Last edited by ECAM_Actions; 5th Jul 2012 at 14:06.
PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour
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DOVES you seem to be positioning yourself in the "it'll never happen to me" camp. Well I sincerely hope it won't happen to you....!
From what I read between the lines, of course there was a failure to follow SOP's with regards to the published response to the GPWS warning, but if it was a gin clear day and the crews response was safe and they continued the approach with situational awareness completely intact, then it might be said that airmanship prevailed. I'm sure that if the crew were in IMC and approaching an unfamiliar airfield then their response would have been entirely different!
From what I read between the lines, of course there was a failure to follow SOP's with regards to the published response to the GPWS warning, but if it was a gin clear day and the crews response was safe and they continued the approach with situational awareness completely intact, then it might be said that airmanship prevailed. I'm sure that if the crew were in IMC and approaching an unfamiliar airfield then their response would have been entirely different!
DOVE
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Distracted crew let Q400 descend towards terrain
Snigs
Do you think that I am adequately humble having spent 47 years and more than 23000 hours of flight, accepting, asking, lessons, tips, suggestions, experiences from anyone in order not to repeat those mistakes made by others. And so far I have succeeded (and I've not even made new ones, because I've never flown tamagotchi which always reveals new traps). Thank you for the greeting: "I sincerely hope it will not happen to you ....!". Also because inspite the age I’m still in the air teaching the art of flying.
You wrote
From AAIB
You wrote
AAIB
Errare humanum est, perseverare autem diabolicum.
Do you think that I am adequately humble having spent 47 years and more than 23000 hours of flight, accepting, asking, lessons, tips, suggestions, experiences from anyone in order not to repeat those mistakes made by others. And so far I have succeeded (and I've not even made new ones, because I've never flown tamagotchi which always reveals new traps). Thank you for the greeting: "I sincerely hope it will not happen to you ....!". Also because inspite the age I’m still in the air teaching the art of flying.
You wrote
...From what I read between the lines, of course there was a failure to follow SOP's with regards to the published response to the GPWS warning...
It descended to about 700ft (210m) [ILLEGAL] above terrain, while still 8nm (15km) from the runway [THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN ALMOST 2500 ft ‘above terrain’], before the ground-proximity warning system [WHICH SAVED THE DAY; and was not on board to save Scandinavian Airlines on 1969, Eastern Airlines on 1972, etc.] ordered the crew to pull up.
…the crews response was safe and they continued the approach with situational awareness completely intact, then it might be said that airmanship prevailed….
There had been no action to correct the flightpath before the warning, suggesting the pilots were "not aware of the extent of the deviation" and were not monitoring the Q400's track or its flight-mode annunciator, says the AAIB.
It adds that the crew did not follow standard procedures after the terrain warning.
The AAIB points out it has investigated two previous incidents involving Flybe Q400s, in which the aircraft descended below their cleared level during approach owing to inappropriate mode selection and inadequate annunciator monitoring.
It adds that the crew did not follow standard procedures after the terrain warning.
The AAIB points out it has investigated two previous incidents involving Flybe Q400s, in which the aircraft descended below their cleared level during approach owing to inappropriate mode selection and inadequate annunciator monitoring.
PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour
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DOVES
There is not much I can say about your comments, I could call them trite and self congratulatory, but I won't. I could ask you how many of your 23000 hours were spent in the crew rest area on long haul flights, but I won't (partly because I'm not interested, and partly because... oh I can't be bothered...)
You will notice that my post was full if "ifs" and "maybe's"
One fact for you though, the
were not as a result of an avionics failure and the subsequent distraction that was caused. No excuse I know, but why are you appointing yourself as Judge and Jury on this particular case as you don't know the full facts!
There is not much I can say about your comments, I could call them trite and self congratulatory, but I won't. I could ask you how many of your 23000 hours were spent in the crew rest area on long haul flights, but I won't (partly because I'm not interested, and partly because... oh I can't be bothered...)
You will notice that my post was full if "ifs" and "maybe's"
One fact for you though, the
two previous incidents involving Flybe Q400s, in which the aircraft descended below their cleared level during approach owing to inappropriate mode selection and inadequate annunciator monitoring.
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Hikoushi,
The description of your instructor just made me smile, sounds like you described the instructor who taught me my IFR skills (which turned out to be more than that, general flying survival skills!). Man he was grumpy old bastard, xenophobic and conservative to a degree it would make any tea partyer blush... but he sure got the flying right! His version was (and mine since then has been): "What's next? And then?"
The description of your instructor just made me smile, sounds like you described the instructor who taught me my IFR skills (which turned out to be more than that, general flying survival skills!). Man he was grumpy old bastard, xenophobic and conservative to a degree it would make any tea partyer blush... but he sure got the flying right! His version was (and mine since then has been): "What's next? And then?"
Last edited by ZeeDoktor; 14th Jul 2012 at 06:52.
lazy fairweather PPRuNer
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This is a good thread with some good pointers which I have taken on board, and Doves and Ancient Greek are particularly entertaining.
The thing that sprung in my mind is that I ALWAYS think about reversion to manual during a departure (Ahead to 3.2 DME, right tracking 345 to ZUMAT to intercept the 041 radial into Pole Hill, climbing 5000') and satisfy myself that should the FMS play up in any way (perish the thought) I am prepared to do it.
However, am I as mentally prepared on an established ILS, even having pre-briefed the 'go around well above minima' scenario? I hope so (but I certainly will be now) but how many of us, once the localiser and glidepath have captured tend to relax just that little bit? Would I have handled the situation under discussion any better? Of course, we all like to think we would but I am too much of a self criticiser to think that it could never happen to me.
Thankyou for posting this thread, it has made me think, and hopefully a better oprator as a result.
And just to let you know what the new generation think about hand flying; recently into Manchester, after recieving clearance for a visual approach onto 23R just after ROSUN, I disconnected the autopilot and put the director bars to standby. The FO said nothing at the time but on the ground made it clear he was not a happy man. Took a lot of calming down and re-assurance from our part B to convince him that no rules or SOPs had been breached.
That seems to be the current mindset though.
3000hrs, probably with the majority doing four or more sectors a day with most of them under an hour. Inexperienced!!??
The thing that sprung in my mind is that I ALWAYS think about reversion to manual during a departure (Ahead to 3.2 DME, right tracking 345 to ZUMAT to intercept the 041 radial into Pole Hill, climbing 5000') and satisfy myself that should the FMS play up in any way (perish the thought) I am prepared to do it.
However, am I as mentally prepared on an established ILS, even having pre-briefed the 'go around well above minima' scenario? I hope so (but I certainly will be now) but how many of us, once the localiser and glidepath have captured tend to relax just that little bit? Would I have handled the situation under discussion any better? Of course, we all like to think we would but I am too much of a self criticiser to think that it could never happen to me.
Thankyou for posting this thread, it has made me think, and hopefully a better oprator as a result.
And just to let you know what the new generation think about hand flying; recently into Manchester, after recieving clearance for a visual approach onto 23R just after ROSUN, I disconnected the autopilot and put the director bars to standby. The FO said nothing at the time but on the ground made it clear he was not a happy man. Took a lot of calming down and re-assurance from our part B to convince him that no rules or SOPs had been breached.
That seems to be the current mindset though.
3000hrs, probably with the majority doing four or more sectors a day with most of them under an hour. Inexperienced!!??
