plane crash in Lagos Nigeria
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: LOS
Age: 39
Posts: 173
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Worldpilot,
If you read it properly, you'd notice that they blamed Boeing for manufacturing and delivering a "dangerous and defective" aircraft. So if there are MD83s flying in US airspace, according to the lawsuit, the answer to your question is yes.
If you read it properly, you'd notice that they blamed Boeing for manufacturing and delivering a "dangerous and defective" aircraft. So if there are MD83s flying in US airspace, according to the lawsuit, the answer to your question is yes.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Choroni, sometimes
Posts: 1,974
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How are the chances of a double engine failure due to bird strike on rear engines mounted aircraft like the mad dog?
Are there relevant statistics?
Albeit I have some hours on 727, bird strikes on pods were seldom. On center engine like none.
Are there relevant statistics?
Albeit I have some hours on 727, bird strikes on pods were seldom. On center engine like none.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Munich, Germany
Posts: 271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
eagleflier,
Frankly, if Boeing airplanes are as characterized, the company won't survive it. FAA won't even allow Boeing to sell a single airplane. I really don't see how Boeing could be held accountable for this incident. The plane was certified and sold to Alaskan Airlines and flown for many years before being sold to Dana Air.
The regulatory compliance and service/maintenance environment in Nigerian airline industry is just not appropriate enough to address the risks level. I personally think that that's the one of the major variable of the equation that led to this incident.
Frankly, if Boeing airplanes are as characterized, the company won't survive it. FAA won't even allow Boeing to sell a single airplane. I really don't see how Boeing could be held accountable for this incident. The plane was certified and sold to Alaskan Airlines and flown for many years before being sold to Dana Air.
The regulatory compliance and service/maintenance environment in Nigerian airline industry is just not appropriate enough to address the risks level. I personally think that that's the one of the major variable of the equation that led to this incident.
Last edited by worldpilot; 11th Jun 2012 at 20:16.
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah. But who knows what hidden short-coming there was in the original design just waiting for the right foreseeable set of circumstances to arise? [/sarcasm] Arrow
Last edited by CF105-Arrow; 11th Jun 2012 at 20:19.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sue everyone in sight for $zillions. Chances are somebody will settle for $thousands rather than spend more than the settlement offer defending the suit, with about half going to the lawyer(s). The merit of the case, or lack thereof, is irrelevant.
Litigation is a better bet than the lottery
Litigation is a better bet than the lottery
Last edited by BobnSpike; 11th Jun 2012 at 21:47.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: It wasn't me, I wasn't there, wrong country ;-)
Age: 79
Posts: 1,757
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nigeria & Africa
Some years ago a very dear friend, a Nigerian Captain, MD of a publishing House & Flight Support Operation, was one of my speakers at a large BIZAV conference in the US. His topic was "Operations in Africa".
He started with " Africa, Africa the dark continent ! You know we have got airways, airports, Air Traffic Control, Nav Aids & airlines. They may not work, but we've got them !" The 500 or so delegates erupted in laughter & clapping. That set the tone for the "Be alert, be safe, be sure & maintain communications with your Flight Support company & your own company at all times.
He started with " Africa, Africa the dark continent ! You know we have got airways, airports, Air Traffic Control, Nav Aids & airlines. They may not work, but we've got them !" The 500 or so delegates erupted in laughter & clapping. That set the tone for the "Be alert, be safe, be sure & maintain communications with your Flight Support company & your own company at all times.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ATC and Dana 992
From his accent, it was obvious he was the Indian co-pilot, Mr. Mahendra Roathore, who spoke with the ATCs during the last minutes of the tragic flight.
The pilot, an American, Captain Peter Waxtan, was said to have been busy, struggling to keep the aircraft in flight, while the co-pilot spoke with the ATCs.
Below is the word-for-word account of the conversation between the crew of the ill-fated plane and the ATC on duty.
Co-pilot: “Lagos Tower, Dana code 0992!”
ATC: “Dana Code 0992, this is Lagos radar, go ahead!”
Co-pilot: “May Day! May Day! May Day! Dana code 0992 Five November Romeo Alpha Mike! (5N-RAM) dual engine failure!”
ATC: “Dana Code 0992, read me?”
Co-pilot: “I read you five by five! Dual engine failure! Negative response from throttle! Requesting for direct straight approach!”
ATC: “Alright, position it one mile to touch down, Runway 18R! Contact tower now on 1181!”
Co-pilot: “1181 Good day!”
Unfortunately, the crew never spoke with the control tower. The aircraft crashed into the residential building a few seconds after this discussion.
Dana pilot
The pilot, an American, Captain Peter Waxtan, was said to have been busy, struggling to keep the aircraft in flight, while the co-pilot spoke with the ATCs.
Below is the word-for-word account of the conversation between the crew of the ill-fated plane and the ATC on duty.
Co-pilot: “Lagos Tower, Dana code 0992!”
ATC: “Dana Code 0992, this is Lagos radar, go ahead!”
Co-pilot: “May Day! May Day! May Day! Dana code 0992 Five November Romeo Alpha Mike! (5N-RAM) dual engine failure!”
ATC: “Dana Code 0992, read me?”
Co-pilot: “I read you five by five! Dual engine failure! Negative response from throttle! Requesting for direct straight approach!”
ATC: “Alright, position it one mile to touch down, Runway 18R! Contact tower now on 1181!”
Co-pilot: “1181 Good day!”
Unfortunately, the crew never spoke with the control tower. The aircraft crashed into the residential building a few seconds after this discussion.
Dana pilot
Join Date: May 2012
Location: By one of the seven wonders of the world
Age: 90
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No 'old' planes allowed into Nigeria...
According to AFA [Air Force Association] Nigeria has implemented a relatively new policy to deny entry into Nigeria for planes over 22 years old. This was said in the context, that the average age of USAF fleet is over 22 years.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UAE
Posts: 89
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I dont really understand why they were making an approach for 18R unless they had problems before this already as Dana are based at MM2 and the flight was Domestic coming from Abuja in Daylight hours with good weather so 18L would have been the landing RWY for this flight and better for their approach path and as the RWY`s are staggered 18L threshold would have been closer than the threshold of 18R. So any doubt about making the RWY i would have been going direct 18L as its a few hundred meters closer than 18R if i`m remembering the airport correctly.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hotel Sheets, Downtown Plunketville
Age: 76
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lagos DANA 992
Simply a case of Lift is a gift, but Thrust is a must. The issue to be determined therefore is why the lack of thrust. The ATC transcript gives us a clue, double engine failure, what remains to be ascertained first is whether this was a simultaneous engine failure or not. Most unlikely that fuel exhaustion would cause simultaneous failure, one engine would flame out before the other. I would suggest the evidence, scant as it is, points more in the direction of A/T failure which would affect both engines simulataneously. Does anyone have sim experience on A/T failure modes. Particularly since the THY Schipol event. Obviously the LHR 777 hedge hopper is of no relevance as air temperature is not an issue in this instance.
Mistrust in Management
scant as it is, points more in the direction of A/T failure
Chromus
You logic about simultainty is flawed if all you are using is the rumored ATC calls.
The first thing on the crews mind during approach when a single engine fails is to annuciate it and scan the instruments while the pilot is handling the aircraft (in my mind that is still optionally open in this investigation).
Only when the situation is in doubt (the other engine later fails damit!) would the non-flying pilot then get on the radio.
Of course this is still all just speculation and I only use it to argue against your postulations
You logic about simultainty is flawed if all you are using is the rumored ATC calls.
The first thing on the crews mind during approach when a single engine fails is to annuciate it and scan the instruments while the pilot is handling the aircraft (in my mind that is still optionally open in this investigation).
Only when the situation is in doubt (the other engine later fails damit!) would the non-flying pilot then get on the radio.
Of course this is still all just speculation and I only use it to argue against your postulations
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: en route
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good account of aviation in Nigeria
I saw this in the IHT this morning, and thought it a good account for those who haven't had the pleasure of flying Air Nigeria, or Arik, or Dana, or the rest.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/13/wo...n-nigeria.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/13/wo...n-nigeria.html
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: East Molesey, Surrey, UK
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here's some context for Dana Air and Nigerian aviation
Is Nigerian aviation safety still on course? - Learmount
Is Nigerian aviation safety still on course? - Learmount
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Denmark
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the discussion, whether an old plane is safe is wrong.
Obviously it is a question of maintenance.
Furthermore, after many years as a sim instructor and examiner I have come to the following conclusion:
I would at any time prefer a good pilot in a poorly maintained aircraft, than a poor pilot in a new or perfectly maintained aircraft.
Peter Waxtan was a highly experienced pilot. Without knowing him, I would propably have felt safe in his hands. It is sad, that multiple catastrophic failures left him with not chance of saving the aircraft.
Still I find it more likely that poor pilot will **** up a new aircraft, than getting into a situation where a pilot like Peter Waxtan would not be able to deal with serious failures and save the aircraft.
Obviously it is a question of maintenance.
Furthermore, after many years as a sim instructor and examiner I have come to the following conclusion:
I would at any time prefer a good pilot in a poorly maintained aircraft, than a poor pilot in a new or perfectly maintained aircraft.
Peter Waxtan was a highly experienced pilot. Without knowing him, I would propably have felt safe in his hands. It is sad, that multiple catastrophic failures left him with not chance of saving the aircraft.
Still I find it more likely that poor pilot will **** up a new aircraft, than getting into a situation where a pilot like Peter Waxtan would not be able to deal with serious failures and save the aircraft.
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Hyeres, France
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MERLYN....
Are you sure ??
Wouldn't say for certain, but the picture looks something like the skipper of a Dana flight when I deplaned in Abuja a couple of months ago....Didn't know him at all, but remember being quite surprised to see a white, American accented skipper as all the Dana flight crews that I have met here are of either African or Indian ethnicity....
Whether the picture is right or wrong, can't help but have tremendous sadness for the crew, who must have known their chances were miniscule if they couldn't make the threshold....Not too many green fields anywhere around MM if you needed to put it down short of the tarmac, even though there are acres and acres and acres of empty grass once inside / over the perimeter fencing, and where a dead stick landing from almost any direction except directly over the terminal buildings would have been possible if only they could have made it that far....
And in relation to Dana - always believed that they are a decent outfit by West African standards with ' intelligent ' management....And from what I've seen on the apron, I can't say the MD's looked to be in obviously poor condition compared to to some of the other rubbish which passes through here on a daily basis....So until proved otherwise, I think I'd discount any suggestions that the aircraft was known to be u/s before departure and the crew were under any sort of pressure from the company to carry out the flight....
I'm not going to speculate on any particular reasons for this sad accident, and just put this one down to bad luck of one sort or another....Problem will be the Nigerian Government's tradition to never actually issue accident reports, with or without assistance or pressure from other countries aviation authorities and so it is unlikely that we will ever know the full cause....
Having said all that - the combination of American ambulance-chasing lawyers and opportunistic Nigerians with American connections could become the mother of all nightmares for anyone and everyone with even the remotest association with the manufacture / maintenance / operation of the aircraft and this particular flight....I doubt, therefore, that we will see Dana even wish to continue in existence with those prospects on the horizon....
Are you sure ??
Wouldn't say for certain, but the picture looks something like the skipper of a Dana flight when I deplaned in Abuja a couple of months ago....Didn't know him at all, but remember being quite surprised to see a white, American accented skipper as all the Dana flight crews that I have met here are of either African or Indian ethnicity....
Whether the picture is right or wrong, can't help but have tremendous sadness for the crew, who must have known their chances were miniscule if they couldn't make the threshold....Not too many green fields anywhere around MM if you needed to put it down short of the tarmac, even though there are acres and acres and acres of empty grass once inside / over the perimeter fencing, and where a dead stick landing from almost any direction except directly over the terminal buildings would have been possible if only they could have made it that far....
And in relation to Dana - always believed that they are a decent outfit by West African standards with ' intelligent ' management....And from what I've seen on the apron, I can't say the MD's looked to be in obviously poor condition compared to to some of the other rubbish which passes through here on a daily basis....So until proved otherwise, I think I'd discount any suggestions that the aircraft was known to be u/s before departure and the crew were under any sort of pressure from the company to carry out the flight....
I'm not going to speculate on any particular reasons for this sad accident, and just put this one down to bad luck of one sort or another....Problem will be the Nigerian Government's tradition to never actually issue accident reports, with or without assistance or pressure from other countries aviation authorities and so it is unlikely that we will ever know the full cause....
Having said all that - the combination of American ambulance-chasing lawyers and opportunistic Nigerians with American connections could become the mother of all nightmares for anyone and everyone with even the remotest association with the manufacture / maintenance / operation of the aircraft and this particular flight....I doubt, therefore, that we will see Dana even wish to continue in existence with those prospects on the horizon....
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: fort sheridan, il
Posts: 1,656
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Question.
What position were the wing flaps/slats found in?
AS you douglas boys know, if one engine was out you would use one certain flap setting for approach and landing
if both engines were running fine, normal landing flaps might have been set.
the question...did the engine(s) fail after configuring for landing or not? And don't make a supposition based on distance to touchdown.
What position were the wing flaps/slats found in?
AS you douglas boys know, if one engine was out you would use one certain flap setting for approach and landing
if both engines were running fine, normal landing flaps might have been set.
the question...did the engine(s) fail after configuring for landing or not? And don't make a supposition based on distance to touchdown.