Cockpit Video Recorders to become mandatory
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From what I've understood, video recorders are on the way in
Great news and entirely consistent with what is happening on the ground.
They will protect pilots too (security and reputation [at lesat the reputation of the competent ones])
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You may be thinking of the Embraer over Brazil where the Captain put his foot on the footrest but may have knocked the transponder off with his foot in doing so. This stopped TCAS from working and they collided with the GOL 737-800 over the amazon resulting in the total loss of the 737. Bit of a design flaw with the Embraer which pilots need to be careful of.
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One of the types I fly currently has cameras as external sensors, nice to have, but not as useful as one may expect. Suitable cargo bay cameras may be nice. I'm sure that instrument video - like HUD tapes would be of some use to the AIB/ NTSB etc, but I doubt it's worth the cost.
Flight deck crew video, what a waste of time and money. Better training and less politics is the solution, not YouTube. "If you're doing nothing wrong then you have nothing to fear", don't be so naive. As for trends in practice on the ground, I'm really not interested. I fly aeroplanes not mahogany bombers.
Check ride on every trip, don't be so juvenile. What do you think goes on in 99.99% of flight decks? For those conducting pre-meditated gross misconduct I cannot see the cameras providing any data - obviously.
Flight deck crew video, what a waste of time and money. Better training and less politics is the solution, not YouTube. "If you're doing nothing wrong then you have nothing to fear", don't be so naive. As for trends in practice on the ground, I'm really not interested. I fly aeroplanes not mahogany bombers.
Check ride on every trip, don't be so juvenile. What do you think goes on in 99.99% of flight decks? For those conducting pre-meditated gross misconduct I cannot see the cameras providing any data - obviously.
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It is purely because it is an easy option and the airlines will foot the bill. Many many many more people are killed in automobile accidents every year so if the health and safety people say it will save lives then suggest every car/truck and bus has one installed. Trouble is this may impact on the profitibility of auto industry so would never get sactioned.
If there was a cost trade off then perhaps be a good idea. Line checks, simple, send in the tape. One line checker could do about 10 a day
If there was a cost trade off then perhaps be a good idea. Line checks, simple, send in the tape. One line checker could do about 10 a day
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First of all, we as pilots are very keen that the safety record of aviation exceeds that of the automobile industry - if we want anyone to fly then that has to be the case. Without embarrassment or awkwardness we openly want to have a 100% safety record around the world where the number of take-offs equal numbers of landings. That may never be achievable but it is a worthy goal, and in our efforts to achieve that we should have no sacred cows.
It is not so long ago that flight data monitoring was considered an attack on a pilot's professionalism, but now forms part of our daily lives. Certainly, in my own airline, the application of the data has been religiously applied in terms of the original agreement with the Union. This is where the problem applies with regard to the video issue, and it has to be addressed - particularly in the context of the USA where freedom of information is King. If we can have a Union agreement in place that the video information is only available to download in the event of an incident/accident and will not be used to observe and punish minor breaches of SOP then that would be fine. The problem is what happens in the event of a fatal accident involving massive loss of life, which, alas, does happen in aviation from time to time. The pressure to release 'the moment of impact' video to the voracious press and blood-sucking public would be just too immense, coupled with media-led court cases under the auspices of 'freedom of information' to obtain release of the video. Added to that you would have secretaries who have access to the video and would want to make a fast buck by selling it. It may be that somewhere in the bowels of the US military is a helmet-cam video showing the shots that killed Osama bin Laden, and to an extent I am surprised it has not appeared already in the public domain. The reason it has not is due to military desire to protect one of their own, backed by clear secrecy laws - protections not on offer to civilian pilots.
Unions are quite rightly protective of their members' rights to privacy. They know that in the final analysis those rights would be long forgotten 'for the greater good' if a video existed of the last minutes of a crash. They do not want their members' families being subjected to the horror of their loved ones' last moments being endlessly displayed to the waiting masses. Therefore we have two irreconcilable positions - the pilots' desire to avoid their last moments displayed to the world as opposed to a professional board of inquiry, and the public's appetite for the vile and unwholesome. Until some very clear legislation can be brought in to offer the same level of privacy the SEAL who shot Osama bin Laden gets to the pilots in an air crash, then there really is nowhere to go. Basically, a public agreement needs to be in place that says normal 'right to know' is subordinated to the need to keep pilot confidence and maintain the privacy of their last moments on Earth - tricky but achievable.
It is not so long ago that flight data monitoring was considered an attack on a pilot's professionalism, but now forms part of our daily lives. Certainly, in my own airline, the application of the data has been religiously applied in terms of the original agreement with the Union. This is where the problem applies with regard to the video issue, and it has to be addressed - particularly in the context of the USA where freedom of information is King. If we can have a Union agreement in place that the video information is only available to download in the event of an incident/accident and will not be used to observe and punish minor breaches of SOP then that would be fine. The problem is what happens in the event of a fatal accident involving massive loss of life, which, alas, does happen in aviation from time to time. The pressure to release 'the moment of impact' video to the voracious press and blood-sucking public would be just too immense, coupled with media-led court cases under the auspices of 'freedom of information' to obtain release of the video. Added to that you would have secretaries who have access to the video and would want to make a fast buck by selling it. It may be that somewhere in the bowels of the US military is a helmet-cam video showing the shots that killed Osama bin Laden, and to an extent I am surprised it has not appeared already in the public domain. The reason it has not is due to military desire to protect one of their own, backed by clear secrecy laws - protections not on offer to civilian pilots.
Unions are quite rightly protective of their members' rights to privacy. They know that in the final analysis those rights would be long forgotten 'for the greater good' if a video existed of the last minutes of a crash. They do not want their members' families being subjected to the horror of their loved ones' last moments being endlessly displayed to the waiting masses. Therefore we have two irreconcilable positions - the pilots' desire to avoid their last moments displayed to the world as opposed to a professional board of inquiry, and the public's appetite for the vile and unwholesome. Until some very clear legislation can be brought in to offer the same level of privacy the SEAL who shot Osama bin Laden gets to the pilots in an air crash, then there really is nowhere to go. Basically, a public agreement needs to be in place that says normal 'right to know' is subordinated to the need to keep pilot confidence and maintain the privacy of their last moments on Earth - tricky but achievable.
Privacy is just one argument against installing video cameras. Unfortunately it only inflames somebody elses rights.
I have and will continue to profer that there are more productive ways to increase safety (cost vs benefit) and the cost is not just $. The major cost is the technical challenges including installations and support vs the benefit gained.
This is the # 1 reason why this proferred gizmo has not moved to the top 10 list and is unlikley to do so in the next 10 years.
There are other more delectable fruit still hanging lower on the tree that we are still picking.
I have and will continue to profer that there are more productive ways to increase safety (cost vs benefit) and the cost is not just $. The major cost is the technical challenges including installations and support vs the benefit gained.
This is the # 1 reason why this proferred gizmo has not moved to the top 10 list and is unlikley to do so in the next 10 years.
There are other more delectable fruit still hanging lower on the tree that we are still picking.
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Commercial video equipment as installed in non aviation facilities cost a few hundred dollars. Let's have a competition to see how many thousand it will cost to install in aircraft once the FAA and EASA have their input who will listen to Collins and Honeywell's argument that commercial video equipment is not suitable (AKA too cheap and we won't make any money)
I will start the bidding at $50,000
I will start the bidding at $50,000
Commercial video equipment as installed in non aviation facilities cost a few hundred dollars. Let's have a competition to see how many thousand it will cost to install in aircraft once the FAA and EASA have their input who will listen to Collins and Honeywell's argument that commercial video equipment is not suitable (AKA too cheap and we won't make any money)
I will start the bidding at $50,000
I will start the bidding at $50,000
How about airplane out-of-service to install and maintain? Should it be deferrable if a lens gets mucked up with chewing gum or a smiley face
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Shell management
We have to listen to you. You seem quite content to spout your hatred of pilots on nearly every thread. Lets put a video camera in your office and it follows you wherever you go. Including your management lunches.
You sound exactly like someone who "failed" to become a pilot, all bitter and twisted.
We have to listen to you. You seem quite content to spout your hatred of pilots on nearly every thread. Lets put a video camera in your office and it follows you wherever you go. Including your management lunches.
You sound exactly like someone who "failed" to become a pilot, all bitter and twisted.
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I don't have a problem with cockpit video recorders....as long as the same rules as cockpit voice recorders hold true.
and, please, don't show that little bald spot on the back of my head.
I think the recent crash in Lagos would have been solved by now if the cockpit video recorder had been installed.
and, please, don't show that little bald spot on the back of my head.
I think the recent crash in Lagos would have been solved by now if the cockpit video recorder had been installed.
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SM,
Years ago, American Airlines had a video camera installed on some of their aircraft, DC-10's if I recall correctly. At the crews discretion, the camera was on during the T/O. For SLF it was interesting, particularly to note how much it bounced around during the T/O roll, rough runways at some airports.
Today, video cameras are often installed on school busses in the USA. They are there mainly to focus on the SLF, particularly those that would be considered "bullies". Now, if you rode a school bus 50 years ago and you probably didn't if you grew up in Europe, but if you would have, it was good they didn't have cameras, Eh?
Years ago, American Airlines had a video camera installed on some of their aircraft, DC-10's if I recall correctly. At the crews discretion, the camera was on during the T/O. For SLF it was interesting, particularly to note how much it bounced around during the T/O roll, rough runways at some airports.
Today, video cameras are often installed on school busses in the USA. They are there mainly to focus on the SLF, particularly those that would be considered "bullies". Now, if you rode a school bus 50 years ago and you probably didn't if you grew up in Europe, but if you would have, it was good they didn't have cameras, Eh?
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I think the recent crash in Lagos would have been solved by now if the cockpit video recorder had been installed.
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I agree with your analysis posted on 65 and I fill to add more.
Would a crew fill completely free to act for safety when you konw big brother is watching you and will be judging you? Or would you move in different way, say different things, and and act in a different way just because you know any of your single move, word or act will be judged. In a few words you will think more like an actor trying to show up you did a good job on an emergency rather then take your collegues your passengers out of trouble. Same passengers and collegues that will take you to the court in the best case. Brain under these circustancies could be overloaded and getting useless specially captain brain which is already under pressure for responsability and loss of live, we don't really need more pressure. The risk is to work against safety being too busy to think usless things.
Prevention of accident, CRM and flight simulator is the best way to maintain a good level of safety. I have never been asked what would you like to do on this Simulator section? Where do you think you are weak in your knoledge or your pilot skill? We do not need cameras on board we need only VST and GCS.
Would a crew fill completely free to act for safety when you konw big brother is watching you and will be judging you? Or would you move in different way, say different things, and and act in a different way just because you know any of your single move, word or act will be judged. In a few words you will think more like an actor trying to show up you did a good job on an emergency rather then take your collegues your passengers out of trouble. Same passengers and collegues that will take you to the court in the best case. Brain under these circustancies could be overloaded and getting useless specially captain brain which is already under pressure for responsability and loss of live, we don't really need more pressure. The risk is to work against safety being too busy to think usless things.
Prevention of accident, CRM and flight simulator is the best way to maintain a good level of safety. I have never been asked what would you like to do on this Simulator section? Where do you think you are weak in your knoledge or your pilot skill? We do not need cameras on board we need only VST and GCS.
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lomapaseo . . .
Privacy is just one argument against installing video cameras.
Video recording cams focused on the instrument panels of AF447 would have shown what was displayed on the F/Os screen, data that was NOT recorded by the FDR.
What did the F/O at the controls SEE on his display that would give investigators a clue as to why he may have pulled on his stick and climbed into a stall?
glueball
You seem to have misrepresented my arguments by clipping a quote.
I was only acknowledging other's arguments about privacy as a singular argument when in fact there are numerous other arguments of why cockpit cameras are not high on the wanted listed of safety improvements.
As to your specious argument above about saving lives regarding AF447 it would require a speculative conclusion about the causal factors let alone a design engineers understanding of just how to employ such a camera exactly as needed for each and every accident you deem it necessary to do so.
. With 229 deader than dead bodies on the bottom of the Atlantic, your "privacy" rights in the cockpit are severely challenged. 
Video recording cams focused on the instrument panels of AF447 would have shown what was displayed on the F/Os screen, data that was NOT recorded by the FDR.
What did the F/O at the controls SEE on his display that would give investigators a clue as to why he may have pulled on his stick and climbed into a stall?
Video recording cams focused on the instrument panels of AF447 would have shown what was displayed on the F/Os screen, data that was NOT recorded by the FDR.
What did the F/O at the controls SEE on his display that would give investigators a clue as to why he may have pulled on his stick and climbed into a stall?
I was only acknowledging other's arguments about privacy as a singular argument when in fact there are numerous other arguments of why cockpit cameras are not high on the wanted listed of safety improvements.
As to your specious argument above about saving lives regarding AF447 it would require a speculative conclusion about the causal factors let alone a design engineers understanding of just how to employ such a camera exactly as needed for each and every accident you deem it necessary to do so.
Last edited by lomapaseo; 16th Jun 2012 at 20:17.
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.. when in fact there are numerous other arguments of why cockpit cameras are not high on the wanted listed of safety improvements.
After a while pilots will simply forget the cameras are there. Who modifies what they say in the cockpit because of the CVR! Pilots will talk about all sorts of non-operational stuff while they are starting the engines then taxi for take-off. The NTSB has been wanting CVidR for a while so it is high on the list of priorities and it will provide answers to accidents that the CVR simply can't capture. If those who are so concerend about privacy are really serious then I take it they have no bank accounts, never use a credit card and have no internet connection. Unless you are living in the remotest hills of your particular country of abode then privacy is a concept that is as illusory as parliamentary democracy.
