Jet Airways "Supernumerary" Landed Jet--not reported
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Irrespective of the quality of 'journalism' here, certain facts have been acknowledged by the DGCA which do not qualify as speculative drivel from our local rags.
The supy DID occupy the RHS, although I am quite sure he/she did not land the plane. Even this yahoo can't be THAT stupid to allow a supy to do that.
Jet DID cover up the incident. No question about that.
The other aspect that can be debated to no end is the magnitude of the punishment to be meted out. As it stands right now, it looks like DGCA is not happy with the quantum of punishment. I have a feeling, as a face saving exercise, this guy is done as far as flying in India is concerned. They WILL throw the book at him, and hard.
As usual, the flaws in the system are glossed over and I reckon the underlying issues will be brushed under the rug.
What about CRM? Why was the effo so passive during the whole episode. I applaud him for filing a formal complaint. I did read something on another post where he will have a tough time in the future with other captains. I think that it is deplorable and if anything he should be congratulated for his courage. Keep in mind that like the culture here, the cockpit gradient is very steep. While I do not defend his actions during the incident, his follow up is commendable given the state of CRM and general hierarchical attitudes prevalent in this part of the world. He will probably have some tortuous flights initially, but in the long run he will be better off.
I believe that addressing these issues holistically is the only way out. But no one really wants to open up Pandoras box. I had high hopes after the AIX crash that there would be a fundamental shift in how things are done here but to no avail. I have personally given up hope for Indian aviation in the near future as it lumbers along rudderless and leaderless. Too many of these moronic incidents with no REAL tangible corrective action will just keep periodically lining up the holes in the proverbial Swiss cheese.
The supy DID occupy the RHS, although I am quite sure he/she did not land the plane. Even this yahoo can't be THAT stupid to allow a supy to do that.
Jet DID cover up the incident. No question about that.
The other aspect that can be debated to no end is the magnitude of the punishment to be meted out. As it stands right now, it looks like DGCA is not happy with the quantum of punishment. I have a feeling, as a face saving exercise, this guy is done as far as flying in India is concerned. They WILL throw the book at him, and hard.
As usual, the flaws in the system are glossed over and I reckon the underlying issues will be brushed under the rug.
What about CRM? Why was the effo so passive during the whole episode. I applaud him for filing a formal complaint. I did read something on another post where he will have a tough time in the future with other captains. I think that it is deplorable and if anything he should be congratulated for his courage. Keep in mind that like the culture here, the cockpit gradient is very steep. While I do not defend his actions during the incident, his follow up is commendable given the state of CRM and general hierarchical attitudes prevalent in this part of the world. He will probably have some tortuous flights initially, but in the long run he will be better off.
I believe that addressing these issues holistically is the only way out. But no one really wants to open up Pandoras box. I had high hopes after the AIX crash that there would be a fundamental shift in how things are done here but to no avail. I have personally given up hope for Indian aviation in the near future as it lumbers along rudderless and leaderless. Too many of these moronic incidents with no REAL tangible corrective action will just keep periodically lining up the holes in the proverbial Swiss cheese.
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Notwithstanding the illegality of the issue here,-and I let it complete in the middle if it was wise to do so or not-the passengers on this plane were probably as safe on board as at any other initial training flight with a new S/O.
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How on earth do you work that out?
The trainee would be type rated, would of completed base training.
The flight would be crewed with a training Captain and a Safety First Officer would of been on board.
This would of been in accordance with OM Part D.
This was noting short of wreckless.
No type rating, no base training, no safety FO, no training captain.
The trainee would be type rated, would of completed base training.
The flight would be crewed with a training Captain and a Safety First Officer would of been on board.
This would of been in accordance with OM Part D.
This was noting short of wreckless.
No type rating, no base training, no safety FO, no training captain.
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well theres no question about how illegal it was.We must recognize however that the flying culture in India is different from other parts of the world.The gradient being steep its not easy for the first officer.He did have the choice of not vacating his seat which IMO would have been the thing to do.I do believe however that the s/o was type rated.
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Trainee landing: Jet suspends pilot
A bit of news from "India Blooms" paper.
Trainee lands Jet Airways plane; pilot suspended - India News - IBNLive
And if one wants to listen to a commentary.
A bit of news from "India Blooms" paper.
Trainee lands Jet Airways plane; pilot suspended - India News - IBNLive
And if one wants to listen to a commentary.
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I'm astonished that people on here are in some way attempting to defend this situation... ok, so here's me with my training hat on ... "eh bloggs, got my 6 year old daughter in the back .. how bout you go grab a coffee and read the paper".
Unbelievable.
Unbelievable.
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Few points regarding above mentioned discussion,
1. Incident occurred couple of months back.The matter was leaked to the DGCA recently.
2.Theflight safety was informed regarding the incident under the confidential reporting system in place , and it was kept in confidence as per the confidence reporting guidelines.
3.Crew were suspended for 3 months.
What could have been done better.
1.Quantum of punishment? Three months way too less I suppose ,Cancellation of License too much ,as rumored ,even Murderers get reprieves, you cannot take away a persons source of livelihood.
2.DGCA should have specified what has to be reported and level of punishment to be meted out.If you are not ready for the high end evolved stuff like SMS don't try it.Its nowhere there.
3.The F/O was a low time new release.He too is sweating it out.I am fairly certain no Captain in JetAirways is gonna hold it against him for his actions contrary too earlier posts just that he should have acted more firmly.
4.It is true that F/Os are not permitted to land in the first 50 hrs so if you fly with one expect the stds of a c152 with maybe a landing or two on the b737 of course lot of D sim ldgs Total flt. experience 250 hrs.
5.It's a Circus the whole lot,it can be fun at times,but highly frustrating for those who don't play along.
1. Incident occurred couple of months back.The matter was leaked to the DGCA recently.
2.Theflight safety was informed regarding the incident under the confidential reporting system in place , and it was kept in confidence as per the confidence reporting guidelines.
3.Crew were suspended for 3 months.
What could have been done better.
1.Quantum of punishment? Three months way too less I suppose ,Cancellation of License too much ,as rumored ,even Murderers get reprieves, you cannot take away a persons source of livelihood.
2.DGCA should have specified what has to be reported and level of punishment to be meted out.If you are not ready for the high end evolved stuff like SMS don't try it.Its nowhere there.
3.The F/O was a low time new release.He too is sweating it out.I am fairly certain no Captain in JetAirways is gonna hold it against him for his actions contrary too earlier posts just that he should have acted more firmly.
4.It is true that F/Os are not permitted to land in the first 50 hrs so if you fly with one expect the stds of a c152 with maybe a landing or two on the b737 of course lot of D sim ldgs Total flt. experience 250 hrs.
5.It's a Circus the whole lot,it can be fun at times,but highly frustrating for those who don't play along.
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Rasper,
Your clearly not upto speed on this are you?
Jet Airways violated their AOC. As per the conditions that their AOC was issued under they are required to notify the DGCA of these incidents.
There was a coverup by Jet Airways Safety / Managment team.
The actions of the management have placed their AOC / IATA membership at risk.
The Captain did not make a "mistake" he deliberately violated the AFM and DGCA approved Company Operations Manual.
The only reason you don't see just how serious this is.... Is because all airlines in India operate to such a poor standard.
Your clearly not upto speed on this are you?
Jet Airways violated their AOC. As per the conditions that their AOC was issued under they are required to notify the DGCA of these incidents.
There was a coverup by Jet Airways Safety / Managment team.
The actions of the management have placed their AOC / IATA membership at risk.
The Captain did not make a "mistake" he deliberately violated the AFM and DGCA approved Company Operations Manual.
The only reason you don't see just how serious this is.... Is because all airlines in India operate to such a poor standard.
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UNION
Few things to understand the local pilots "almighty" attitude
- local union put 9W under their knees few years back, going on an almost suicide strike amid the worst crisis the carrier experienced, as a reaction to the airline firing some unexpressive 'leaders'. They were actually reinstated;
- it's usual for them (at least some of them) to display less than professional attitude, for instance operating dressing pijamas (yes! even doing TO/LDG on long haul flights), smoking in the cockpit, spending long time in the back chating with the FAs are very popular behavior among them, kind of showing up how relaxed and 'nice guys' they are;
- the paternalistic and non punitive policy, owing to fears related to the first statement here, they consider themselves more or less 'untouchables'; so the playboysh attitude
It's no surprise this kind of behavior would eventually extend to safety threating level, as it's the case
That's very unfortunate, considering the majority of Jet Airways pilots are high level professionals.
- local union put 9W under their knees few years back, going on an almost suicide strike amid the worst crisis the carrier experienced, as a reaction to the airline firing some unexpressive 'leaders'. They were actually reinstated;
- it's usual for them (at least some of them) to display less than professional attitude, for instance operating dressing pijamas (yes! even doing TO/LDG on long haul flights), smoking in the cockpit, spending long time in the back chating with the FAs are very popular behavior among them, kind of showing up how relaxed and 'nice guys' they are;
- the paternalistic and non punitive policy, owing to fears related to the first statement here, they consider themselves more or less 'untouchables'; so the playboysh attitude
It's no surprise this kind of behavior would eventually extend to safety threating level, as it's the case
That's very unfortunate, considering the majority of Jet Airways pilots are high level professionals.
Last edited by fullforward; 17th Feb 2012 at 23:27.
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local union put 9W under their knees few years back, going on an almost suicide strike amid the worst crisis the carrier experienced
Events leading to the strike were instigated by the Indian pilots nemesis and ex Gulf Air, Swiss cheese alignment chief, Mr. Hamed Ali. In a previous cost cutting move, Mr. Ali had sacked several hundred Jet cabin crew resulting in picket lines with Indian politicians involved. The sacked cabin crew were all reinstated. Since that time local pilots were more anxious to form a union, in part, to prevent similar treatment. Mr. Ali inflamed the situation by appearing on Indian television to berate the local pilots for being unprofessional and exercising their constitutional right to form a labor union. Incidentally, no pilot union was ever allowed at Gulf Air during Mr. Ali’s tenure.
During the strike, Jet management finally agreed to meet the pilots to resolve issues. The sacked pilots were reinstated and the strike called off. Unfortunately, Jet management were unwilling to meet the pilots until the strike had begun. The strike would certainly have been avoided had it not been for management's, in particular, Mr. Ali’s, own “almighty" attitude.
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...and of course give (some) their pilots the sense of "power" to justify their unprofessional attitude, now slipping into downright dangerous territory.
There are numerous mistakes, omissions etc resulting from reckless operations, swiss cheese is alignning its holes...
BTW, the useless head of Flight Safety Department, as a 'punishment' has been upgraded to B777.
There are numerous mistakes, omissions etc resulting from reckless operations, swiss cheese is alignning its holes...
BTW, the useless head of Flight Safety Department, as a 'punishment' has been upgraded to B777.
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head of Flight Safety Department, as a 'punishment' has been upgraded to B777
Who runs Jet day to day anyway. I hear the owner is based in London and the CEO is based in the US and one of the highly regarded directors retired last year. So who really is running the show and calling the shots back in BOM.