BA plane lands at Accra with runway blocked?
Penko, 9800 feet of runway is 3000 meters of runway not 3100 m +. And that's before the blockage. I hear what you're saying about common sense but it's thankless. Why take the risk - the company won't thank you. And if you screw up they will blame you. Where in the OMs does it say to do such a thing or imply that you have scope to think such a thing? This isn't an emergency or even nearly an abnormal. If in doubt, there's no doubt - go somewhere else. Of course it can be done but does it need to be in a fully serviceable aircraft that will have destination alternates with a flight time like that?
Penko, you really have got a grip of this one for some reason. Let it go and have a chill out, not everyone agrees with you, some do, some dont. But dont stand there stamping your feet hoping that repeatedly ramming home your opinion will get you your own way.
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This thread should be titled "BA aircraft in entirley normal landing".
Reductions in declared distances happen all the time, as do temporary changes to obstacles as has been pointed out in this thread.
Remember the 777 that bellied out at LHR? That runway remained open, albeit to departing traffic only, with reduced TORA/ASDA.
The real unknown in this conversation is what happened to the disabled aircraft? Had their mishap only just happened? And critically, did this have an effect on the level of fire cover available?
You might have all the runway you need still available, and ATC might allow you to go for it, but if the fire cover is diminished by an incident in progress then you wouldn't be legal.
Reductions in declared distances happen all the time, as do temporary changes to obstacles as has been pointed out in this thread.
Remember the 777 that bellied out at LHR? That runway remained open, albeit to departing traffic only, with reduced TORA/ASDA.
The real unknown in this conversation is what happened to the disabled aircraft? Had their mishap only just happened? And critically, did this have an effect on the level of fire cover available?
You might have all the runway you need still available, and ATC might allow you to go for it, but if the fire cover is diminished by an incident in progress then you wouldn't be legal.
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Look, this is an interesting and apparently very real scenario that deserves to be explored a bit better than 'bonkers, cowboys, divert!'. But that was the way this was heading yesterday, hence the stamping of my feet. Nowhere did I say my solution was the only solution, I was trying to get a meaningful discussion going, like we have now.
Last edited by PENKO; 30th Jan 2012 at 11:09.
There is an old saying in aviation that the difference between the good captain and the poor captain is that the good captain knows what the book allows him to do and the poor captain knows only what the book stops him doing.
If the reaction on this thread is to prevail that it is better to cover your a**e, put the passengers to massive inconvenience and cost the company many thousands in diversion costs - then I'm very sad for the future of aviation.
If the reaction on this thread is to prevail that it is better to cover your a**e, put the passengers to massive inconvenience and cost the company many thousands in diversion costs - then I'm very sad for the future of aviation.
How many contributors to this have commanded big jets?
If you haven't, you are, of course, entitled to your opinion; it's just that it doesn't carry as much weight* as those who have.
* or should that be 'mass'
If you haven't, you are, of course, entitled to your opinion; it's just that it doesn't carry as much weight* as those who have.
* or should that be 'mass'
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Easy! Landed in Chania, Greece with reduced runway as works going on at the landing end. Was mentioned in the NOTAMS, ATIS and by ATC!
No probs, whats the big deal? As long as there is enough tarmac to stop still!!
No probs, whats the big deal? As long as there is enough tarmac to stop still!!
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Easy! Landed in Chania, Greece with reduced runway as works going on at the landing end. Was mentioned in the NOTAMS, ATIS and by ATC!
No probs, whats the big deal? As long as there is enough tarmac to stop still!!
No probs, whats the big deal? As long as there is enough tarmac to stop still!!
In the case we have no information to work with, in the case you site its already been made legal.
Look, this is an interesting and apparently very real scenario that deserves to be explored a bit better than 'bonkers, cowboys, divert!'. But that was the way this was heading yesterday, hence the stamping of my feet. Nowhere did I say my solution was the only solution, I was trying to get a meaningful discussion going, like we have now.
I have no problem landing on reduced distances and have done many times. I am mearly saying that you need the information avaialble to make the decision.
The Original post and I did search for a fair while and was unable to find anything does not provide any information to the overall situation at the field etc at the time. How much time elapsed between the 2 landings, what effects did it have on aerodrome coverage and facilities. What was the exact position of the aircraft.
Landing on reduced distance runways, reduced width due clearing or just narrow etc are normal parts of the every day job.
I make no suggestion in real terms (only tongue in cheek) that anyone was at fault. Indeed dont know if it even happened. I would however remind that everyone jumps to the conclusion it is legal, when we have no facts of what occured.
If the runway state is unknown, actual usable LDA unknown, and clearance heights etc etc etc unknown we cant really comment.
You can land a B738 in 900M according to the Max Manual case in the QRH but would you ??
PENKO, I agree with you that its perfectly acceptable to land on a runway that is reduced, but based on the original post I just decided to take the other stance to you :-)
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interesting thread
Currently in Accra, will be flying back tomorrow night, so I'll try to have a look at the airport and ask around.
P.S. seem to remember somebody talking bout Tenerife being in the Azores.. Last time I checked it was still in the Canaries!
P.S. #2: Attaki good to see somebody else actually picked that up after 3 pages of thread!!
P.S. seem to remember somebody talking bout Tenerife being in the Azores.. Last time I checked it was still in the Canaries!
P.S. #2: Attaki good to see somebody else actually picked that up after 3 pages of thread!!
Last edited by 737-NG; 1st Feb 2012 at 10:47.
So what was ATC's role in this (if there was a "this?").
Was the crew advised of the obstruction (outside of seeing it with their own eyes?). Were they cleared to land?
If cleared to land, it becomes a judgement call, not a legal question.
A plane blocking 1000 meters of a 3000m runway is no different than a 2000m runway with a plane (or hangar, or ocean) parked off the end. You check the numbers, procedures, and your experience, and decide if 2000 meters is enough. (Adjust numbers as needed if we ever find out the real situation).
Was the crew advised of the obstruction (outside of seeing it with their own eyes?). Were they cleared to land?
If cleared to land, it becomes a judgement call, not a legal question.
A plane blocking 1000 meters of a 3000m runway is no different than a 2000m runway with a plane (or hangar, or ocean) parked off the end. You check the numbers, procedures, and your experience, and decide if 2000 meters is enough. (Adjust numbers as needed if we ever find out the real situation).
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New Atlas
Dear Expressbird,
Tenerife is not one of the Azores islands.
Tenerife where the KLM-Pan Am accident was, is one of the Canary Islands.
Hope your'nt a pilot.
Tenerife is not one of the Azores islands.
Tenerife where the KLM-Pan Am accident was, is one of the Canary Islands.
Hope your'nt a pilot.
Hope your'nt a pilot.
Not aware that this was a geography test, but you're correct and I apologise, was just making a point that two aircraft on the same runway, wherever in the World, for whatever reason, can be potentially dangerous. Of course aircraft land on published reduced runway lengths all the time, that's not the point, the reason for the reduction can be significant - or not. Decide at the time.
Thank you.
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the main difference of opinions here is that some of us pretend to act and "think" like AutoPilots..
unfortunately.PUT LAWYERS IN THE FRONT DECK AND YOU WILL BUST THE AIRLINE !
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Originally Posted by T688BFJ
Was mentioned in the NOTAMS, ATIS and by ATC!
In the case we have no information to work with, in the case you site its already been made legal.
In the case we have no information to work with, in the case you site its already been made legal.
Would I divert to Lome, Lagos or Cotonou if a bizjet was sitting at the far end of this long runway? I doubt it... For starters, the weather seems to get progressively worse the further east you fly from ACC. Abidjan is a good alternate. However, it's time we captains use a little more common sense as this BA crew seems to have done! I'd probably do the same thing having weighed up the pros and cons!
Exsp33dbird - just how many things should we take as 'possibly' happening??? Maybe I should refuse to fly to Addis Abeba in a heavy 345 in 'case' the brakes fail. Believe me, with the lack of emergency overrun (ie huge drop off) this would bring tears to my eyes!!!!!!
Let's be PRACTICAL folks...
WK. Captain operating A332 and A343 into Accra
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was just making a point that two aircraft on the same runway, wherever in the World, for whatever reason, can be potentially dangerous.
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What is the difference between the last three hundred feet of the runway closed due to runway maintenance or a disabled aircraft?
Check the charts and if you can land safely, do, if not, don't.
Check the charts and if you can land safely, do, if not, don't.
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One day wasn't going well with us. A 727 going MIA to BAQ Colombia. Our alternate was 50 miles away, both were closed, can't get dispatch so ask what destination and alternate airport weather is. Both below minimums. We get a clearance from ATC to Panama City in VMC conditions and land with above minimum fuel. Dispatch a bit panicked but we called in Panama City and told them we didn't descend because we couldn't land at destination or alternate and they were not available.
Next we waited two hours to take off and leave for Baranquilla(sp) and guess what, a 707 Was on the runway that we didn't land at with the 20 knot tailwind with ILS and blew all it's tires. I had a female copilot who was flying the leg and said pretend it is Islip, NY and fly over on the long runway. We got by with it but one passenger leaving said I have never landed over another airplane on the runway before. I said, me either.
Next we waited two hours to take off and leave for Baranquilla(sp) and guess what, a 707 Was on the runway that we didn't land at with the 20 knot tailwind with ILS and blew all it's tires. I had a female copilot who was flying the leg and said pretend it is Islip, NY and fly over on the long runway. We got by with it but one passenger leaving said I have never landed over another airplane on the runway before. I said, me either.
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This is a typical PPRUNE steaming pile of hot air and nonsense, until someone actually confirms whether it happened or not, and where the light aircraft was sitting.