Air Blue crash was caused by Captain
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F/O warned him once more and when the captain pressed on regardless, the F/O grabbed the cockpit crash axe and threatened to brain the captain unless he stopped the descent.
The Sky God days are pretty much over in America from what I can see. Now, the captain is more of a whipping boy, no matter what happens, it's his, her or its fault. Lord help you if you miss a signature or incorrect MEL reference in the logbook. Safety is a consideration but many decisions are made on the basis of CYA and how will it play at the hearing. If ATC offers you an intersection takeoff on a very long runway, you'd better set the brake and make sure you have data for that particular intersection even though you know you are legal (and safe) for an intersection with a shorter takeoff roll.
The report said at 0439:58 (70 seconds before the impact), first Enhanced Ground Proximity Warning System (EGPWS) warning of ‘terrain ahead’ started sounding meaning that the EGPWS worked exactly in the manner for which it was designed. It is added that the aircrew ignored several calls by the ATS (Air Traffic Services) controllers and EGPWS system warnings (21 times) related to approaching terrain and pull up.
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Small question
the CVR overwrites itself every 30 minutes by design, so how would the investigation team know what the flight crew talked about in karachi or enroute.
also the nonstandard procedure that is the Circle to Land procedure is an approved procedure at OPRN which is followed quiet regularly
on the FMS, you dont input BBIAP or JIAP (these arnt even IATA codes, just local abbreviation for the airports) , you enter 4 letter ICAO codes ie OPKC for karachi and OPRN for islamabad. so that part is bulls**t as well
MDA for Cats A, B its 2410feet and for Cats C, D its 2510feet. the catagory the aircraft fits into depends on its appraoch speeds. either way the margallas are between 3500 to 4200 feet.
about China Southern and others not doing Circle to Land. the answer is very simple. the crew arnt allowed to fly a procedure at an airport they havnt recieved training for. if they had gotten sim training on circle to land at OPRN, they would have flown the appraoch.
whatever they are saying about the captain it from reputation. If he did indeed confuse the airports and the restricted areas, that comes down to fatigue and therefore was unfit to take the flight in the first place.
the FO was new and had about 100 to 150hours on the A320.
also they didnt mention who was the Pilot Flying and Pilot-Not-Flying. kind of relevant. captain should have been flying since the airfield was on the left side of the aircraft
high rate of descent?, yeah right. the aircraft hit the mountain in a nose high attitude with engines at high power. high rate of descent would only be possible if the aircraft was in a dive, or the aircraft was stalled. and knowing a bit the flight control system on the aircraft, you cant stall a A320. the aplha protection system kicks in before the airplane stalls.
half the report is incorrect.
plain and simple case of CFIT.
question which still hasnt been answered is why did they fly in a straight line for over 4 minutes without taking any action? from the point where you break off the ILS to start the circling procedure to the crash site is about 10NM. even if they were flying at 140kts, that makes just over 4 minutes of flying. for a guy whose been flying for 20 plus years and someone who just recent finished his line training, it doesnt make any sense..
the CVR overwrites itself every 30 minutes by design, so how would the investigation team know what the flight crew talked about in karachi or enroute.
also the nonstandard procedure that is the Circle to Land procedure is an approved procedure at OPRN which is followed quiet regularly
on the FMS, you dont input BBIAP or JIAP (these arnt even IATA codes, just local abbreviation for the airports) , you enter 4 letter ICAO codes ie OPKC for karachi and OPRN for islamabad. so that part is bulls**t as well
MDA for Cats A, B its 2410feet and for Cats C, D its 2510feet. the catagory the aircraft fits into depends on its appraoch speeds. either way the margallas are between 3500 to 4200 feet.
about China Southern and others not doing Circle to Land. the answer is very simple. the crew arnt allowed to fly a procedure at an airport they havnt recieved training for. if they had gotten sim training on circle to land at OPRN, they would have flown the appraoch.
whatever they are saying about the captain it from reputation. If he did indeed confuse the airports and the restricted areas, that comes down to fatigue and therefore was unfit to take the flight in the first place.
the FO was new and had about 100 to 150hours on the A320.
also they didnt mention who was the Pilot Flying and Pilot-Not-Flying. kind of relevant. captain should have been flying since the airfield was on the left side of the aircraft
high rate of descent?, yeah right. the aircraft hit the mountain in a nose high attitude with engines at high power. high rate of descent would only be possible if the aircraft was in a dive, or the aircraft was stalled. and knowing a bit the flight control system on the aircraft, you cant stall a A320. the aplha protection system kicks in before the airplane stalls.
half the report is incorrect.
plain and simple case of CFIT.
question which still hasnt been answered is why did they fly in a straight line for over 4 minutes without taking any action? from the point where you break off the ILS to start the circling procedure to the crash site is about 10NM. even if they were flying at 140kts, that makes just over 4 minutes of flying. for a guy whose been flying for 20 plus years and someone who just recent finished his line training, it doesnt make any sense..
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the CVR overwrites itself every 30 minutes by design, so how would the investigation team know what the flight crew talked about in karachi or enroute.
Modern CVRs run for much longer
also the nonstandard procedure that is the Circle to Land procedure is an approved procedure at OPRN which is followed quiet regularly
I think they refer to what he 'flew'?
whatever they are saying about the captain it from reputation. If he did indeed confuse the airports and the restricted areas, that comes down to fatigue and therefore was unfit to take the flight in the first place.
Based, I believe, on the CVR, not 'reputation?
Modern CVRs run for much longer
also the nonstandard procedure that is the Circle to Land procedure is an approved procedure at OPRN which is followed quiet regularly
I think they refer to what he 'flew'?
whatever they are saying about the captain it from reputation. If he did indeed confuse the airports and the restricted areas, that comes down to fatigue and therefore was unfit to take the flight in the first place.
Based, I believe, on the CVR, not 'reputation?
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the CVR overwrites itself every 30 minutes by design, so how would the investigation team know what the flight crew talked about in karachi or enroute.
The FAA and the NTSB had a field day with the extended cockpit chat of the ill-fated crew of a commuter plane crash in Buffalo, New York in 2009. Much of the conversation had nothing to do with operation of the aircraft but portions were later read at congressional hearings on pilot rest rules. If I knew I would be testifying before Congress, I might chose my final words more carefully. In the U.S., strict legal and contractual protections are supposed to ensure the privacy of CVR content but once an accident or reportable incident occurs, eveything on the recording seems to be fair game for the feds.
Many aircraft operating manuals have legacy boilerplate text about 30 minutes of recording, the erase button really works, no recording after the engines are shut down etc. Much of this stuff is no longer true from what I've been told by folks who should know.
Obviously, CVR legal protections vary internationally, I have no idea how things work in Pakistan.
Last edited by Airbubba; 24th Dec 2011 at 06:52.
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Pure Speculation-TIA
The captain's behavior-confusion, failure to respond, etc could possibly be explained by a mild TIA event.
TIA=Transient ischemic attack.
Unlikely to see this in a young puppy, but this is a good reason to evaluate the other guy's performance, even if he is a senior, highly respected pilot. You will likely not observe the complete laundry list of symptoms, just a few.
If what he is doing doesn't make sense, you have to ask him WHY he is doing what he is doing. If the answer doesn't work, it is time to take action.
And for you grouchy guys, suck it up and answer the other guy's questions, he might have a good reason for asking.
TIA=Transient ischemic attack.
Symptoms
Symptoms begin suddenly, last only a short time (from a few minutes to 1 - 2 hours), and go away completely. They may occur again at a later time.
The symptoms of TIA are the same as the symptoms of a stroke and include sudden:
Symptoms begin suddenly, last only a short time (from a few minutes to 1 - 2 hours), and go away completely. They may occur again at a later time.
The symptoms of TIA are the same as the symptoms of a stroke and include sudden:
- Abnormal feeling of movement (vertigo) or dizziness
- Change in alertness (sleepiness, less responsive, unconscious, or in a coma)
- Changes in feeling, including touch, pain, temperature, pressure, hearing, and taste
- Confusion or loss of memory
- Difficulty swallowing
- Difficulty writing or reading
- Inability to recognize objects or people
- Lack of control over the bladder or bowels
- Lack of coordination and balance, clumsiness, or trouble walking
- Muscle weakness of the face, arm, or leg (usually only on one side of the body)
- Numbness or tingling on one side of the body
- Personality, mood, or emotional changes
- Problems with eyesight (double vision, loss of all or part of vision)
- Trouble speaking or understanding others who are speaking
If what he is doing doesn't make sense, you have to ask him WHY he is doing what he is doing. If the answer doesn't work, it is time to take action.
And for you grouchy guys, suck it up and answer the other guy's questions, he might have a good reason for asking.
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The way the report is written indicates, (to me), that the Captain was in some degree of anxiety state, sometimes a prelude to a panic attack. We shall never know.
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Air Blue Crash Report
Have read the report.
It is chilling. 21 EGPWS alerts including F/O begging captain "Sir, pull up, Sir", three/four times and ending with "We are going down, Sir, we are go....".
Heading bug was rolled to the left but not engaged. Captain asks aloud in Urdu "Why is it not turning left"? F/O has no answer. When finally engaged, aircraft turned RIGHT (shortest distance). Bank angles of upto 54 degrees reached. Power was applied but not TOGA detent. There was a picth-up and then a pitch-down. The descent does sounds very odd. Report says descent rate of -3,000fpm was recorded.
No CVR or DFDR outputs appended but obviously report is drawing on them.
BEA and NTSB were accredited reps.
Stage set for disaster in the cruise when Capt. tests F/O's "technical" knowledge and then disparages and humiliates him for his poor answers. He goes into a shell but still has the courage to speak up when sensing imminent danger but not the courage to take over control and GA which he should have done assuming subtle incapacitation.
They were NOT visual at all times but informed ATC they were. When radar picked them up again and transmitted instructions to GA immediately, they had crashed.
Capt. had 26,000 hours on all types in PIA. Only 1,000 hours on 319/320/321. F/O had only about 300 hours on Airbus.
We may criticize report but this is the first one published in 64 years. All thanks to the High Court, the petitioner, families and media which kept the pressure on. So all in all a historic first.
It is chilling. 21 EGPWS alerts including F/O begging captain "Sir, pull up, Sir", three/four times and ending with "We are going down, Sir, we are go....".
Heading bug was rolled to the left but not engaged. Captain asks aloud in Urdu "Why is it not turning left"? F/O has no answer. When finally engaged, aircraft turned RIGHT (shortest distance). Bank angles of upto 54 degrees reached. Power was applied but not TOGA detent. There was a picth-up and then a pitch-down. The descent does sounds very odd. Report says descent rate of -3,000fpm was recorded.
No CVR or DFDR outputs appended but obviously report is drawing on them.
BEA and NTSB were accredited reps.
Stage set for disaster in the cruise when Capt. tests F/O's "technical" knowledge and then disparages and humiliates him for his poor answers. He goes into a shell but still has the courage to speak up when sensing imminent danger but not the courage to take over control and GA which he should have done assuming subtle incapacitation.
They were NOT visual at all times but informed ATC they were. When radar picked them up again and transmitted instructions to GA immediately, they had crashed.
Capt. had 26,000 hours on all types in PIA. Only 1,000 hours on 319/320/321. F/O had only about 300 hours on Airbus.
We may criticize report but this is the first one published in 64 years. All thanks to the High Court, the petitioner, families and media which kept the pressure on. So all in all a historic first.
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Thanks
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I got a hard copy and took notes on site while reading it so I hope most of my quotes are accurate. I think they are.
I was asked to return the hard copy but I hope I can put it up here for your analysis and opinion.
That is what safety is about. Sharing that information with experts.
After I finished reading it, my hands were shaking. I could not believe that a 26,000 hour captain could be so dumb and so unwilling to accept that he was headed towards disaster.
I was asked to return the hard copy but I hope I can put it up here for your analysis and opinion.
That is what safety is about. Sharing that information with experts.
After I finished reading it, my hands were shaking. I could not believe that a 26,000 hour captain could be so dumb and so unwilling to accept that he was headed towards disaster.
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Have it on my HD now.
Please advise how I can post it here. Should I simply post the full 38 pages?
Please advise how I can post it here. Should I simply post the full 38 pages?
Is it officially released to the world? Don't want to step on anyone's toes.
PM if you need help.
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Thanks Maajam. If anyone else has any suggestions on how to post it, could you please give some advice as he may not know how to make it into a PDF file. I don't think I know that.
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Jammed and maajam, to make PDF documents, you need a PDF converter piece of software such as the full Acrobat or what I have: Nuance - PDF - Nuance PDF Converter provides everything you need to create, convert, edit, assemble, and securely share PDF files
Then it is a simple matter of assembling the document and publishing it. If necessary, I can convert for you-assuming receipt in the next 36 hrs. That was the point of the PM comment.
Then it is a simple matter of assembling the document and publishing it. If necessary, I can convert for you-assuming receipt in the next 36 hrs. That was the point of the PM comment.
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Thank you, Sir. Let me try that.
I am generally not a novice when it comes to a computer but there is always a first time!
I would like to caution everyone that the print is very poor and I had a tough time reading it again on my HD.
It seems to be a photo-copy but a bad one at that.
I am generally not a novice when it comes to a computer but there is always a first time!
I would like to caution everyone that the print is very poor and I had a tough time reading it again on my HD.
It seems to be a photo-copy but a bad one at that.
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If it's a scanned or photocopy image of a document then it can't be fed into a word processing program like Word. There is a free utility called PDF Creator (Google that name to get the download) that will act like a printer on your computer and create a PDF file rather than a print when you send any document to print (cancel your normal attached printer and send it to PDF creator instead)