Air Blue crash was caused by Captain
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Age 61
Please use your imagination - can you not answer this yourself? You talk, after all, of "Imagine that in our trade...". At age 61 I would have thought you had considered this problem at some stage?
Dear BOAC, thanks for all your insightful comments during the years (no irony!).
Of course I have considered it.
Last edited by paparomeodelta; 16th Jan 2012 at 18:05.
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Last contribution to this post. As I stated previously there are only two things you know about an accident. There is never a single cause and there is always human error. In this case the thread name is wrong. An accident such as this is not purely caused by the Captain - same for cruise ships. Training, checking, monitoring, regulations and so on are all part of the mix.
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Para - I wish you many more years, but I really do not see where all this is getting us. We have an extremely rare event. Another event where there cannot be an 'SOP'.
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Para - I wish you many more years, but I really do not see where all this is getting us. We have an extremely rare event. Another event where there cannot be an 'SOP'.
With all respect, if you find it uninteresting, you can leave the thread. But not decide what me and some others (see previous notes) find interesting.
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OK, my two cents on what PNF should have done.
Just stiff arm the throttles after telling the Captain to go around first.
It would force a climb back into the clag where a circling approach could no longer be considered an option. It would be very hard for the Captain to override a locked arm.
They would then go through the regular missed approach and have a 'discussion' about their next options.
Same for the Mangalore accident.
Just stiff arm the throttles after telling the Captain to go around first.
It would force a climb back into the clag where a circling approach could no longer be considered an option. It would be very hard for the Captain to override a locked arm.
They would then go through the regular missed approach and have a 'discussion' about their next options.
Same for the Mangalore accident.
One of the major strategies to prevent hijack it to stop potential terrorists getting on the aircraft in the first place - as we know this may not always be 100%.
So in this case I see a parallel. If this Captain was known to be overbearing etc then what was he doing on the aircraft in the first place? What procedures do airlines have in place to spot those who might be "mentally impaired" as crew members and stop them getting on the a/c in the first place?
If a First Officer knows that a Captain is going to be impossibly difficult to deal with then perhaps he should just refuse to fly with him. If enough did this then the message would get through.
Having to take action in the air at the eleventh hour is trying to bolt the stable door after the horse has escaped.
So in this case I see a parallel. If this Captain was known to be overbearing etc then what was he doing on the aircraft in the first place? What procedures do airlines have in place to spot those who might be "mentally impaired" as crew members and stop them getting on the a/c in the first place?
If a First Officer knows that a Captain is going to be impossibly difficult to deal with then perhaps he should just refuse to fly with him. If enough did this then the message would get through.
Having to take action in the air at the eleventh hour is trying to bolt the stable door after the horse has escaped.
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If a First Officer knows that a Captain is going to be impossibly difficult to deal with then perhaps he should just refuse to fly with him
The only defense in such circumstances would be to shove the levers up to TOGA, say "yes. Sir. GoAround understood, TOGA set" and later apologize sincerely and pretend having definitely heard the command "GoAround" as in this situation it really made sense. If it was not intended, then apologize sincerely again and say it was a misunderstanding. The ego of the maniac is intact and so is your carrier. Additionally it will be HIM trying to avoid to fly with you again.
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Man, operating as a Flight Mech for several years. Sitting in the cockpit, listening to countless pre flight briefings I gained respect for the Capitan who asked me to ignore the "silent cockpit" rule if I saw an abnormality as I was an extra set of eyes who knew the aircraft and simple flight law.
I also flew with several Capitan's who scared the Shiite out of me. As a result those few Capitan's held a silent cockpit for the duration of a 8 hour leg. I could go back and rest on the cargo or in a seat, always felt sorry for the poor F/O and scribe who had no choice in the matter.
I also flew with several Capitan's who scared the Shiite out of me. As a result those few Capitan's held a silent cockpit for the duration of a 8 hour leg. I could go back and rest on the cargo or in a seat, always felt sorry for the poor F/O and scribe who had no choice in the matter.
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Originally Posted by prd
Just because there cannot be an SOP, it is interesting to hear different angles on the subject.
With all respect, if you find it uninteresting, you can leave the thread. But not decide what me and some others (see previous notes) find interesting.
With all respect, if you find it uninteresting, you can leave the thread. But not decide what me and some others (see previous notes) find interesting.
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Gretchenfrage:
Not saving his butt cost him not only his job but his life. That is short-sighted to say the least. Yelling "mayday" three times should have gotten an investigation of the ATC and military personnel, and radio/radar recording, if any. If the aviation authority would not be interested in doing that then it is not a civilized country. (oops, don't want to go there.)
Still looming? That suggests it will change. There is little, if any, chance of that happening.
Naw, yelling mayday and raising Cain, and climbing to an unauthorized emergency altitude would have done a lot more good, unless the tower and military radar personnel are completely corrupt. They are part of the "little people" who hopefully have some integrety and would appreciate that 160 of their fellow countrymen were saved at the last moment, as seen by them on radar.
The same goes with taking over command. You'd save your butt, however you'd lose your job. If captains like the one in question still are on the line with such a reputation, this means they are protected.
Not saving his butt cost him not only his job but his life. That is short-sighted to say the least. Yelling "mayday" three times should have gotten an investigation of the ATC and military personnel, and radio/radar recording, if any. If the aviation authority would not be interested in doing that then it is not a civilized country. (oops, don't want to go there.)
Most probably by superiors with the same attitude towards authority. It's an epidemic that is hard to root out. In the west it is also hard to imagine, but it it still looming in these regions.
Still looming? That suggests it will change. There is little, if any, chance of that happening.
The only defense in such circumstances would be to shove the levers up to TOGA, say "yes. Sir. GoAround understood, TOGA set" and later apologize sincerely and pretend having definitely heard the command "GoAround" as in this situation it really made sense. If it was not intended, then apologize sincerely again and say it was a misunderstanding. The ego of the maniac is intact and so is your carrier. Additionally it will be HIM trying to avoid to fly with you again
Naw, yelling mayday and raising Cain, and climbing to an unauthorized emergency altitude would have done a lot more good, unless the tower and military radar personnel are completely corrupt. They are part of the "little people" who hopefully have some integrety and would appreciate that 160 of their fellow countrymen were saved at the last moment, as seen by them on radar.
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CRM and its failures
Quote: Sleeper
I find it strange that an F/O with his reported 'background' would be so 'intimidated' as to allow him to be killed.
Maybe that's just it. Coming from the airforce, he was indoctrinated with rank, especially in that region of the world. So when flying as a F/O, his captain outranked him and he obviously was not used to go against higher rank even though he had been a squadron leader.
In these countries the boss is always right
End quote
Experience in my Air Force was that, in a squadron environment, it was not unusual to have a Sqn Ldr fly as number two in a pair with a Sergeant Major as leader. This is obviously needed when Sqn Ldrs need upgrading to squadron standards. Rank has only relative importance in these type of situations and one always accepts the authority bestowed on the most experienced pilot. That is to say that stripes are ignored when debriefing and hard facts are communicated concisely and clearly. It never was the intent to use rank to override a decision by the lower ranked pilot UNLESS it concerned excessive risk taking by the latter, in which case the number two had the option to say so on the blower or "pull out".
I think this accident has more to do with typical cultural class differences prevalent in that part of the world as it was the case with the KLM captain at Tenerife who also behaved like the proverbial "I am superior man" !
Is this not the reason why UAL (I believe) initiated the CRM system and this found follow up by the medical profession in operating rooms susequently.The knowledge a CVR is recording the conversation helps to "keep it kosher".
I find it strange that an F/O with his reported 'background' would be so 'intimidated' as to allow him to be killed.
Maybe that's just it. Coming from the airforce, he was indoctrinated with rank, especially in that region of the world. So when flying as a F/O, his captain outranked him and he obviously was not used to go against higher rank even though he had been a squadron leader.
In these countries the boss is always right
End quote
Experience in my Air Force was that, in a squadron environment, it was not unusual to have a Sqn Ldr fly as number two in a pair with a Sergeant Major as leader. This is obviously needed when Sqn Ldrs need upgrading to squadron standards. Rank has only relative importance in these type of situations and one always accepts the authority bestowed on the most experienced pilot. That is to say that stripes are ignored when debriefing and hard facts are communicated concisely and clearly. It never was the intent to use rank to override a decision by the lower ranked pilot UNLESS it concerned excessive risk taking by the latter, in which case the number two had the option to say so on the blower or "pull out".
I think this accident has more to do with typical cultural class differences prevalent in that part of the world as it was the case with the KLM captain at Tenerife who also behaved like the proverbial "I am superior man" !
Is this not the reason why UAL (I believe) initiated the CRM system and this found follow up by the medical profession in operating rooms susequently.The knowledge a CVR is recording the conversation helps to "keep it kosher".
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A good side question for all on this thread then...
Does your Ops Manual deal with the FO (at least attempting to) relieve the Captain of his duties if deemed stupid / drunk / suicidal / brain-dead?
At the Turkish airline I flew for, section 5.2.2.2 PILOT RELIEVING THE COMMANDER:
I guess this will be common for countries where the uniform is king.
Does your Ops Manual deal with the FO (at least attempting to) relieve the Captain of his duties if deemed stupid / drunk / suicidal / brain-dead?
At the Turkish airline I flew for, section 5.2.2.2 PILOT RELIEVING THE COMMANDER:
xxxxx has no policy for Pilot Relieving the Commander.
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Well, sounds like the chapter title which explains in our ops manual relief pilot operation and relief of the commander by the relief pilot. Quite a different thing that what was necessary here which would be covered by pilot incapacitation in flight.
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It still sounds like the FO may lose his job if he decides the captain is not capable of performing his duties so takes over. He still needs to take over if he feels it is necessary. Staying alive is the most important thing. Proving he did what was necessary is secondary.
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Crash axe
- invitation noted, but I can assure you I do not find it 'uninteresting'. I am actually more interested in the particular axe you appear to be trying to grind.
