Air Blue crash was caused by Captain
Ten Miles Final, hardly any of that FMS stuff is necessary and is merely a symptom of Magenta-Capture. Like moths to a light and gen Ys to iphones, the almost irresistible allure of the FMS overwhelms the weak. It rapidly becomes not a crutch, but a walking frame. It would appear that this accident is an example of that.
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Capn Bloggs
Agree.
OK645
Yes, 737 NG is equipped with FPV but apart of unreliable airspeed procedure its application is not described anywhere in boeing manuals.
Agree.
OK645
Yes, 737 NG is equipped with FPV but apart of unreliable airspeed procedure its application is not described anywhere in boeing manuals.
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B has an FPV on the PFD and in the HUD.
I am not biased in the A vs B debate, but the FPV is probably the most useful (and underestimated) tool in Airbus.
Just put the FPV on the runwaytrack bug (no need to adjust for wind) and tail touching horizon means 3degrees path.
You need to have flown with it just once to fully appreciate its value (and B's FPV becomes a laugh after that).
It really lowers the workload in circlings.
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Nobody really needs a tail to read the FPV on 3deg. What if you want to correct your vector and put it on 2.5 or 3.5 for some time? Where is the tail then?? Either you can read degrees or not.
The FPV is nicely usable on both, A or B.
What is very strange, is the bird presentation on the A when you select FD off.
Suddenly you see a new presentation jingling around the horizon on any side, depending on the wind, the 'cage'.
The real outcome of this feature is the flying pilot chasing the circle to match the cage. By that the only difference I saw, was the range of pitch and bank that was considerably greater than if the pilot would just look outside and take the bird as a simple help every now and then.
Circlings I witnessed on the A were all more of a problem than the ones on the B. Not because the aircraft would handle worse, but because the procedures recommended by the manufacturer and the companies were too automatics-bound. The A pilots were looking inside at least twice the time as on other aircraft.
If you think this increases safety, so be it. I disagree.
The FPV is nicely usable on both, A or B.
What is very strange, is the bird presentation on the A when you select FD off.
Suddenly you see a new presentation jingling around the horizon on any side, depending on the wind, the 'cage'.
The real outcome of this feature is the flying pilot chasing the circle to match the cage. By that the only difference I saw, was the range of pitch and bank that was considerably greater than if the pilot would just look outside and take the bird as a simple help every now and then.
Circlings I witnessed on the A were all more of a problem than the ones on the B. Not because the aircraft would handle worse, but because the procedures recommended by the manufacturer and the companies were too automatics-bound. The A pilots were looking inside at least twice the time as on other aircraft.
If you think this increases safety, so be it. I disagree.
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What is very strange, is the bird presentation on the A when you select FD off.
Suddenly you see a new presentation jingling around the horizon on any side, depending on the wind, the 'cage'.
Suddenly you see a new presentation jingling around the horizon on any side, depending on the wind, the 'cage'.
For the benefits of the FPV on A over B, let's agree to disagree. The bird is superior.
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What to do?
So we have an uncapacitated, but dominant captain flying like crap. This is the underlying source to the crash.
Give me the options for the F/O given the captains former behaviour. Doing nothing is as we all know not an option, crash axe has already been mentioned...
What would you have done?
Give me the options for the F/O given the captains former behaviour. Doing nothing is as we all know not an option, crash axe has already been mentioned...
What would you have done?
Last edited by paparomeodelta; 15th Jan 2012 at 10:16. Reason: spelling
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PR - this is (fortunately) an extremely rare situation. There can be 2 cases
1) The Captain has either gone mad and is INTENT on killing everyone.
2) The Captain has 'lost the plot' and is probably going to kill everyone
In 1) it is the crash axe/fire extinguisher if you cannot get c/crew up in time to restrain.
In 2) it depends on the 'attitude' of the Captain - here we appear to have one who wished to intimidate the F/O for whatever reason - perhaps the F/O was the world's best smart-arse and needed 'bringing down' - who knows? Once the C then 'loses the plot' the only option for the F/O is to take control, which would probably be strongly resisted but may well have enabled a climb away and an attempt at 'resolution' at a safe altitude. Sometimes the C in this situation will capitulate and thank the F/O and sensibly hand over control formally - that is, I think, the 'common' result in this 'uncommon' event.
1) The Captain has either gone mad and is INTENT on killing everyone.
2) The Captain has 'lost the plot' and is probably going to kill everyone
In 1) it is the crash axe/fire extinguisher if you cannot get c/crew up in time to restrain.
In 2) it depends on the 'attitude' of the Captain - here we appear to have one who wished to intimidate the F/O for whatever reason - perhaps the F/O was the world's best smart-arse and needed 'bringing down' - who knows? Once the C then 'loses the plot' the only option for the F/O is to take control, which would probably be strongly resisted but may well have enabled a climb away and an attempt at 'resolution' at a safe altitude. Sometimes the C in this situation will capitulate and thank the F/O and sensibly hand over control formally - that is, I think, the 'common' result in this 'uncommon' event.
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But...
In 2) it depends on the 'attitude' of the Captain - here we appear to have one who wished to intimidate the F/O for whatever reason - perhaps the F/O was the world's best smart-arse and needed 'bringing down' - who knows? Once the C then 'loses the plot' the only option for the F/O is to take control, which would probably be strongly resisted but may well have enabled a climb away and an attempt at 'resolution' at a safe altitude. Sometimes the C in this situation will capitulate and thank the F/O and sensibly hand over control formally - that is, I think, the 'common' result in this 'uncommon' event.
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Download the report
For those of you who havnt read it, the report is on the Pakistan Civil Aviation Authority website.
:: CAA Pakistan ::
On the left click on 'Safety Investigation Board'
Click on 'Investigation' and you can download it.
:: CAA Pakistan ::
On the left click on 'Safety Investigation Board'
Click on 'Investigation' and you can download it.
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PR - this is (fortunately) an extremely rare situation. There can be 2 cases
1) The Captain has either gone mad and is INTENT on killing everyone.
2) The Captain has 'lost the plot' and is probably going to kill everyone
1) The Captain has either gone mad and is INTENT on killing everyone.
2) The Captain has 'lost the plot' and is probably going to kill everyone
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That is most probably erring on the side of generosity. Reading the report, one finds that he spent the first hour of the flt berating/belittling his colleague in patronising tones. He then proceeded to build an illegal approach, failed to use the Hdg function, mishandled the aircraft, & totally ignored both the FO & EGPWS exhortations to pull up.
One could indeed argue that he "may " have been incapacitated, but I fear that any incapacitation was more than likely self induced, & limited to being an overbearing old b@stard without the faintest hint of the meaning of CRM.
This is a "classic", which we will no doubt be forced to dissect over the next 10 years on CRM recurrent training. Difficult to believe we will find anything more complex than what I have alluded to here.
One could indeed argue that he "may " have been incapacitated, but I fear that any incapacitation was more than likely self induced, & limited to being an overbearing old b@stard without the faintest hint of the meaning of CRM.
This is a "classic", which we will no doubt be forced to dissect over the next 10 years on CRM recurrent training. Difficult to believe we will find anything more complex than what I have alluded to here.
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My question still stands.
What to do as F/O in these two cases:
1) He´s an old bastard in line with CaptPlaystation
2) He is incapacitated for medical reasons, goes for bad decisions etc...
What would you do? Crash Axe?
Really interested to hear some different solutions how to solve that problem, and maybe rescue some hundred souls...
1) He´s an old bastard in line with CaptPlaystation
2) He is incapacitated for medical reasons, goes for bad decisions etc...
What would you do? Crash Axe?
Really interested to hear some different solutions how to solve that problem, and maybe rescue some hundred souls...
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papa....
Aggressively take control of the airplane, while clawing for sky declare mayday to ATC, telling them the captain has gone nuts and deliberately almost flew into a mountain. They would be on the F/O's side at this point, because the military is seeing it all on radar.
Really interested to hear some different solutions how to solve that problem, and maybe rescue some hundred souls...
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A while back I stated this but on a dangerous approach because the captain was high on a short runway with a crosswind wet tried to land long so I put the thrust levers up and pulled up knowing I would be fired but I just wanted to live. He thanked me surpisingly. You have to do what you have to do.
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papa and sunny - an interesting parallel is developing in the recent Italian cruise liner tragedy where it appears the Captain diverted from the 'approved and planned' route and caused the grounding. It would be interesting to know what 'discussions' took place there with his crew.
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Playstation wrote:-
"One could indeed argue that he "may " have been incapacitated, but I fear that any incapacitation was more than likely self induced, & limited to being an overbearing old b@stard without the faintest hint of the meaning of CRM."
Sounds like the Trident Papa India captain.....
"One could indeed argue that he "may " have been incapacitated, but I fear that any incapacitation was more than likely self induced, & limited to being an overbearing old b@stard without the faintest hint of the meaning of CRM."
Sounds like the Trident Papa India captain.....
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Cruise ship
papa and sunny - an interesting parallel is developing in the recent Italian cruise liner tragedy where it appears the Captain diverted from the 'approved and planned' route and caused the grounding. It would be interesting to know what 'discussions' took place there with his crew.
Thanks for the options given to a F/O with a crazy or incapacitated captain! Are there more to come?
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There is actually an international commission planning to introduce "WTC", water traffic control, so that no dumb cruiser captain can be able to select personal routes for his cruise liner. This actual guy went way off his ideal route, allegedly to "show off" and pass the idyllic island very close. Imagine that in our trade...
Thanks for the options given to a F/O with a crazy or incapacitated captain! Are there more to come?
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Sounds like the Trident Papa India captain.....