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Air China makes headlines again

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Air China makes headlines again

Old 5th Dec 2011, 09:06
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Air China makes headlines again

An Air China B747 coming from JFK diverted from Beijing and ended up at diversion airport with less than 6000 Lbs fuel on board........

Should they had to do a go around at diversion, they would have flamed out engines for sure.....

So much for flight safety in Air China.
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Old 5th Dec 2011, 09:30
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Hello,

Do you have a reference or link to more information in this occurrence ?

I'm a 737 captain researching a similar fuel planning thing for a European airline.

Cheers, much appreciated.
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Old 5th Dec 2011, 13:55
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An Air China B747 coming from JFK diverted from Beijing and ended up at diversion airport with less than 6000 Lbs fuel on board........

Should they had to do a go around at diversion, they would have flamed out engines for sure.....

So much for flight safety in Air China.
The flight seems to have ended in a safe manner

Is there any confirmation that the flight was conducted in an unsafe manner (fuel planning) or is this just an example of a rare set of conditions not anticipated in an SOP ?
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Old 5th Dec 2011, 14:56
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According to ICAO regulations after diversion and holding for 30 minutes at your diversion airport you will not have anything close to 6000 lbs remaining.
Before you blame the Chinese - for how long did they have to stay in the holding?
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Old 5th Dec 2011, 15:09
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Yes so much for the flight safety at Air China. The last serious accident was 9 years ago I seem to remember in South Korea. How many flights a year does the company operate?
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Old 5th Dec 2011, 15:10
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Hold time is proportional to MAYDAY volume

I dont know the numbers, but there should be no excuse. """"we were in the HOLD"""".
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Old 5th Dec 2011, 15:46
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I can well remember a PanAm 747 that diverted from Kennedy to Newark. It was so short of fuel that two engines flamed out taxying in before it got to the gate.

Mind you, they were Americans and not Chinese.
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Old 5th Dec 2011, 15:54
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The biggest threat to safety arriving in PEK is PEK ATC during a diversion.

Expect to burn LOADS more than planned as you divert to a field WAY further than planned at a level WAY lower than desired after spending the first half of the diversion heading the OPPOSITE direction. The 744 with CA would probably not have filed HET as the alternate and was probably snookered into this situation by ATC.

And yes, even round eye airlines have pushed the fuel issue, with a recent one in JFK.
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Old 5th Dec 2011, 16:30
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Why is a Chinese individual--the original poster--so quick to trash a Chinese airline for all the Westerners who read this forum? Does he have an agenda we don't know about? He doesn't seem to be a pilot...
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Old 5th Dec 2011, 17:52
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Does he have an agenda we don't know about?
Decide for yourself. I couldn't quite tell.

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far...ml#post6843193
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Old 5th Dec 2011, 19:05
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I can well remember a PanAm 747 that diverted from Kennedy to Newark. It was so short of fuel that two engines flamed out taxying in before it got to the gate.
The Pan Am incident was in 1979. A BA Concorde did a repeat two engine taxi flameout after landing in LHR under the command of the famous Captain Walpole OBE whilst trying to set a crossing record.
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Old 6th Dec 2011, 00:33
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A BA Concorde did a repeat two engine taxi flameout after landing in LHR under the command of the famous Captain Walpole OBE whilst trying to set a crossing record.
A myth. The incident to which you refer did result in Concorde landing with less than planned minimum fuel but that is all. None of the embellished versions of Concorde engines flaming out or having to be towed to the gate because of the C of G, etc, are true.
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Old 6th Dec 2011, 01:35
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Just for thought, as a veteran of many trans atlantic and trans pacific crossings, the "planned minimum fuel" on arrival is "PLANNED"...

The reason for that is you have a comfortable margin to "dip" into if things go badly...hence, one would land with less than "planned minnimum fuel" on arrival,

BUTS THATS WHAT YOU HAVE IT FOR!!!!!

China, US, Europe, we all have been there...NO BIG DEAL as long as it's safely done...
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Old 6th Dec 2011, 01:38
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Very tactful MM. The incident was a disgraceful use of authority and was not a safe operation. It ranks with the worst airmanship of many airlines that are ranked lowly for Air Safety.
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Old 6th Dec 2011, 05:08
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A myth. The incident to which you refer did result in Concorde landing with less than planned minimum fuel but that is all. None of the embellished versions of Concorde engines flaming out or having to be towed to the gate because of the C of G, etc, are true.
Well, it seems Captain Walpole OBE left the employ of BA shortly after that uh, very minor, incident. He also claims to have barrel rolled a Concorde ( la Tex Johnston) in the company of a French test pilot.

The Concorde 'minimum fuel' incident has been discussed here and elsewhere for years, it was well known as an example of poor CRM across the pond at Pan Am in the late eighties. The FE wanted to divert to SNN but was overruled.

I know my version is true because it starts, 'Now, this is no s**t!'
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Old 6th Dec 2011, 05:55
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OBE = Over Burnham Empty.
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Old 6th Dec 2011, 07:16
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China-Diversion

We had a occassion in 2003 where we wanted to divert to PEK as that was the filed Alternate. ATC refused us to clear us to Beijing as they where busy. Fortunatly we had enough "gas" in the belly left and went to ICN, with the help of the always existing tailwind in that direction we where there in less then one hour with sufficient remaining to go even to GMP if needed.

It remains the same: China needs to grow when it comes to handle the traffic not only in the Skies if not it will collapse one day and then the shiny advertisements are over. Just my humble opinion after more then ten years in Asia and many trips to the "Mainland"
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Old 6th Dec 2011, 08:28
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If ATC says your filed alternate is not available without a min or two pause, just raise your voice and mention regulations....you should get your clearance very shortly... if not file a report.
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Old 6th Dec 2011, 09:06
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Can any one tell us how much is final fuel reserve on the 747-400? Only then will 6000lbs or kgs actually mean much.
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Old 6th Dec 2011, 09:50
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reserve fuel in my company means 30 minutes, so for the average landing weight for the 747-400 ( 240 T ) that would be about 4000KG.

6000lbs = 2722 KG
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