Thomson 737 lands on taxiway at Paphos?
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Can't believe the level of ill-informed debate on what is supposed to be a "professional pilots' " network. PPLs and a bunch of microsoft sofa jockeys once again casting their retrospective aspersions on a couple of highly trained individuals who made an all too human error.
Join Date: Sep 2011
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I totally agree with Dani. The Paphos runway is tricky. The taxiway is not a real taxiway but a back-up military runway. It is longer and wider that the actual runway and the most tricky of all, it is placed not on the side of the parking of the planes and the buildings of the airport but on the opposite side that drives to the military parking. An employee of the Cyprus civil aviation told me that the same incidents happened in the past but the airport authorities did nothing to correct it. A simple look on Google earth will make you understand.
Surprised it has not happened before. It is quite easy to line up on the taxiway. It invites you by its more prominent visual cues. Much brighter than the runway. Also not conventional as it is further from the terminal than the main runway. Before you all start bleating about the ILS it is turned off from time to time.
Maybe a little mention on the charts would help to educate folk. My guess that will be the outcome.
Wonder if the nice people in MAN atc record all the mistaken taxying that goes on at that airport......or will 'something' have to happen.....
Maybe a little mention on the charts would help to educate folk. My guess that will be the outcome.
Wonder if the nice people in MAN atc record all the mistaken taxying that goes on at that airport......or will 'something' have to happen.....
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I love the sympathy and "it's an easy mistake" the boys are getting just because it's Thompson and not Ryanair/easyjet or some similar outfit. Ya see, any pilot can make an error that has nothing to do with their call sign.
They all walked away and fair play. Maybe a few should remember that, the next time they call their low cost colleagues "cow boys" on here.
Safe flying to one and all from the senior man at the best flag carrier to the guy on his first day line training with the dodgiest outfit out there.
They all walked away and fair play. Maybe a few should remember that, the next time they call their low cost colleagues "cow boys" on here.
Safe flying to one and all from the senior man at the best flag carrier to the guy on his first day line training with the dodgiest outfit out there.
Join Date: Oct 1999
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I think for posters on this website who have done and do operate regularly out of PFO, there is an element of sympathy for this crew.
Whilst, for the pretenders, it is easy to imagine that a crew has all the time in the world to peruse the runway in detail before landing, in reality "the office" is moving at 3 miles/min and you are very busy heads-down running check-lists, extending flaps, and monitoring speeds etc. The point being, even on the most visual of days, the B738 is still not a VFR aeroplane and was never designed to be.
Yes - the flight crew screwed up. But, as others have pointed out, the airport layout of PFO lends itself readily to the possibility of this sort of confusion. At the very least, the counter-intuitive layout of PFO is testimony to the fact that others involved in the Swiss Cheese business are often rather less circumspect in their application and dedication to the priorities of flight safety when they know that ultimately it will always be the pilots who are left carrying the can.
Whilst, for the pretenders, it is easy to imagine that a crew has all the time in the world to peruse the runway in detail before landing, in reality "the office" is moving at 3 miles/min and you are very busy heads-down running check-lists, extending flaps, and monitoring speeds etc. The point being, even on the most visual of days, the B738 is still not a VFR aeroplane and was never designed to be.
Yes - the flight crew screwed up. But, as others have pointed out, the airport layout of PFO lends itself readily to the possibility of this sort of confusion. At the very least, the counter-intuitive layout of PFO is testimony to the fact that others involved in the Swiss Cheese business are often rather less circumspect in their application and dedication to the priorities of flight safety when they know that ultimately it will always be the pilots who are left carrying the can.
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So guys, an aircraft lands on a runway that is about 50m displaced to the north of the runway intended..........what is the problem ?
Any one hurt ? any thing damaged ?................NO!
Don't the multi thousand hour Microsoft pilots think that if another aircraft had been on the standby runway (taxiway) then this would not have happend ?
Now is the time for those of you who are currently not allowed out without adult supervision to cop on to the fact that we are all likely to make errors and admitting that you can make errors is the first step in reducing those errors or at best stopping them before the error becomes an accident.
Now grow up be thankful that it was not your error and learn just how easy it could be for you to be sitting in the Chief pilots office next week trying to avoid a very one sided interview.
Any one hurt ? any thing damaged ?................NO!
Don't the multi thousand hour Microsoft pilots think that if another aircraft had been on the standby runway (taxiway) then this would not have happend ?
Now is the time for those of you who are currently not allowed out without adult supervision to cop on to the fact that we are all likely to make errors and admitting that you can make errors is the first step in reducing those errors or at best stopping them before the error becomes an accident.
Now grow up be thankful that it was not your error and learn just how easy it could be for you to be sitting in the Chief pilots office next week trying to avoid a very one sided interview.
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Nothing new............
There is nothing new under the sun. That which has been done is that which will be done.
Landing on the wrong runway, closed runway or some unauthorized piece of parallel concrete has happened many times in the past, continues to happen today and will happen again in the future.
The important lesson here is to understand why the crew landed on the wrong piece of concrete so that you and I are not the next crew to make the same mistake at that airport or anywhere else. "It's going to happen" just make sure it does not happen to you! Assigning derogatory adjectives to their airmanship, intelligence and performance may be personally satisfying on some level but does little to nothing in preventing such occurrences.
There is a reason that aviation regulations require landing crews to have the navigation facilities that are available tuned, identified an followed (if operational) and the training departments have all those policies, required briefings and callouts.
A quick look at Google Earth to evaluate the airport design should be obvious to anybody who flies for a living that this incident has happened at this airport before. I want to strive to understand what broke down in the process and why the failure occurred in order to decrease the probability my making the same error.
Some of the questions that need to be asked include; how long had this crew been on duty on the day of this incident, how many hours have they been on duty that week and month? What, if any, did scheduling practices and fatigue contribute to the underlying cause of this event? How many other incidents have occurred on this runway, what has the airport done to mitigate mistaken runway-taxiway identity at their facility? What navigation facilities are available for this runway, and were they operational? How about the approach lightening and runway markings, are they up to current regulatory requirements and all functioning correctly?
There is usually much more to the equation than "look at that dumb- son of a &@!!"; he/ she, they (demographic/region/particular airline) are terrible pilots.
This crew will face discipline, they will "pay" for their error. I am not advocating they get a pass for their error. That is a given; missing the runway will result in great pain for them. None of us put on the uniform on any given day thinking we will mistake a taxiway for a runway, land long and fast then depart the "prepared surface" or commit a gross navigational error on some long range flight. The truth is we, the pilots actually flying these fast moving anti-gravity machines not the "flight sim video game aces", operate in a high threat environment where things can go from routine to dangerous in a fraction of a second. When errors are committed many of those errors will be highly visible and scrutinized.
The Canadians have a safety publication with the following summary statement I have found accurate and worthwhile: learn from the errors of others, you will not live long enough to commit them all yourself.
Landing on the wrong runway, closed runway or some unauthorized piece of parallel concrete has happened many times in the past, continues to happen today and will happen again in the future.
The important lesson here is to understand why the crew landed on the wrong piece of concrete so that you and I are not the next crew to make the same mistake at that airport or anywhere else. "It's going to happen" just make sure it does not happen to you! Assigning derogatory adjectives to their airmanship, intelligence and performance may be personally satisfying on some level but does little to nothing in preventing such occurrences.
There is a reason that aviation regulations require landing crews to have the navigation facilities that are available tuned, identified an followed (if operational) and the training departments have all those policies, required briefings and callouts.
A quick look at Google Earth to evaluate the airport design should be obvious to anybody who flies for a living that this incident has happened at this airport before. I want to strive to understand what broke down in the process and why the failure occurred in order to decrease the probability my making the same error.
Some of the questions that need to be asked include; how long had this crew been on duty on the day of this incident, how many hours have they been on duty that week and month? What, if any, did scheduling practices and fatigue contribute to the underlying cause of this event? How many other incidents have occurred on this runway, what has the airport done to mitigate mistaken runway-taxiway identity at their facility? What navigation facilities are available for this runway, and were they operational? How about the approach lightening and runway markings, are they up to current regulatory requirements and all functioning correctly?
There is usually much more to the equation than "look at that dumb- son of a &@!!"; he/ she, they (demographic/region/particular airline) are terrible pilots.
This crew will face discipline, they will "pay" for their error. I am not advocating they get a pass for their error. That is a given; missing the runway will result in great pain for them. None of us put on the uniform on any given day thinking we will mistake a taxiway for a runway, land long and fast then depart the "prepared surface" or commit a gross navigational error on some long range flight. The truth is we, the pilots actually flying these fast moving anti-gravity machines not the "flight sim video game aces", operate in a high threat environment where things can go from routine to dangerous in a fraction of a second. When errors are committed many of those errors will be highly visible and scrutinized.
The Canadians have a safety publication with the following summary statement I have found accurate and worthwhile: learn from the errors of others, you will not live long enough to commit them all yourself.
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If the Taxiway/Temporary runway was actually marked as a runway it would probably be safer. Crews cleared to land on 29L rather than 29R would make them visually look for both to make sure they got the correct one.
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I feel sorry for the crew and do not wish to be in their shoes right now.
We all should recall we can get easily distracted in a split of a second and forget to do the main things. No matter how much experience.
As I have not flown a fast-moving jet yet by no means am I to judge. But here's what I do before flying into an unknown airport: study the plates carefully the day before; check Google for a satellite image and remember that picture; always have a chat with colleagues who have flown into that very airport before; on final look for and check the numbers (no numbers at all no good); check tire markings and white markings. And if still in doubt I check with ATC.
We all should recall we can get easily distracted in a split of a second and forget to do the main things. No matter how much experience.
As I have not flown a fast-moving jet yet by no means am I to judge. But here's what I do before flying into an unknown airport: study the plates carefully the day before; check Google for a satellite image and remember that picture; always have a chat with colleagues who have flown into that very airport before; on final look for and check the numbers (no numbers at all no good); check tire markings and white markings. And if still in doubt I check with ATC.
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Most airlines provide their crews with special detailed airport briefs where possible conflicts may occur such as this. Does Thompson provide the same for it's crews.
If the Taxiway/Temporary runway was actually marked as a runway it would probably be safer. Crews cleared to land on 29L rather than 29R would make them visually look for both to make sure they got the correct one.
Out of Trim, quite agree.
Rather than apportioning blame we should be seeking to avoid this type of event ever happening again. The Paphos brief for the company I fly for indicates that the taxiway is sometimes used as a "runway" which emphasises the point that some sort of better signage might prevent this type of incident.
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Wow I am a little shocked by some of the comments, leaving the poor sods out of the equation, there is no excuse for a professional crew to have done this, if it was such a challenge for you airline boys maybe you should have a standard brief for Pahpos?
If it had been a PPL in a 150, a 8000 hour cpt in a Global you wonder boys would have ripped them a new a-hole.
This airport is not a challenge it was day VFR and it is used daily by airlines. If reading the plate or planning your arrival was not high on your agenda then you should not be up front.
Jeez guys what would you have said if the aircraft had landed on a helicopter or a guy just chasing birds or metal splattered everywhere?
This is basic airmanship and if this is considered a challenge then flying is not your vocation.
Just so you ding bats who want to critize, I fly a business jet based out of Cyprus.
If it had been a PPL in a 150, a 8000 hour cpt in a Global you wonder boys would have ripped them a new a-hole.
This airport is not a challenge it was day VFR and it is used daily by airlines. If reading the plate or planning your arrival was not high on your agenda then you should not be up front.
Jeez guys what would you have said if the aircraft had landed on a helicopter or a guy just chasing birds or metal splattered everywhere?
This is basic airmanship and if this is considered a challenge then flying is not your vocation.
Just so you ding bats who want to critize, I fly a business jet based out of Cyprus.
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Rather than apportioning blame we should be seeking to avoid this type of event ever happening again. The Paphos brief for the company I fly for indicates that the taxiway is sometimes used as a "runway" which emphasises the point that some sort of better signage might prevent this type of incident.
If flight crew have been diligently filing reports on how such confusion can arise at PFO, then this crew may have an easier time of it. If PFO isn't that much of a problem, or as is often the case, crew are reluctant to report the potential hazard then the problem will be harder to work with and crew may not be as prepared as perhaps they should be.
I for one, have misidentified a taxiway as a runway, the Captain didn't and as usual, CRM trapped the error so this wasn't an issue because we were still a couple of miles out. But what if he had the same perception? As a result I can understand how easy it is to make the mistake and am much more cognisant of such errors than previously. Report duly submitted too.
Also, I do honestly find it hard to understand how a landing could be completed without a centre line or touchdown zone. But I have also had glimpses of how the brain simply erases such concerns when everything else appears completely normal.
One thing is for sure, assuming these guys have a good history and assuming this incident is handled correctly, this crew will be a much more capable, experienced and safe crew.
Last edited by Sciolistes; 23rd Sep 2011 at 08:28.
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I feel sorry for this crew.
You do a million things right. So what.
You drop a bollock once- instant arsehole.
So, you go from hero to zero in one nanosecond and they just look at you, a-shaking their heads. How could you? A man of your experience?
To the investigators I just say this.
Fly the f*ckers yourself and lets see how long before YOU f&ck up!
You do a million things right. So what.
You drop a bollock once- instant arsehole.
So, you go from hero to zero in one nanosecond and they just look at you, a-shaking their heads. How could you? A man of your experience?
To the investigators I just say this.
Fly the f*ckers yourself and lets see how long before YOU f&ck up!
Proper training both on the ground and in the sim and good rostering are key to stoping incidents like this. When I joined my last company there were 5.6 first officers per aircraft, when I "left" there were 3.4! Same schedule being flown too!
Eventually something has to give and unfortunately it's most likely the crew.
D and F
I agree Mattman, any airport with multiple parallel runways needs careful briefing. I would never say it wouldn't happen to me but I would accept that the buck stops with the Captain in this case. PFO needs a little care if its hazy but its a regular destination and pilots are paid to use their experience. A spot of bad luck for this crew and a lesson for the rest of us.
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Once again, what should be an informative threat about an important incident for the rest of us to learn from (note: thats what most professionals do - they learn from incidents) has turned into an immature willy waving contest from a bunch of 16 year old flight simmers.
Its a real pity that there isn't a more professional forum for people to discuss these sort of things sensibly.
Its a real pity that there isn't a more professional forum for people to discuss these sort of things sensibly.
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We can discuss sensibly all we like but what we don't know is the exact mindset of the crew in question at the time. What puzzles me is that they must surely have operated into Paphos dozens of times before (it's a very regular Thomson destination), so while I accept that with a setting sun conditions may have been visually impaired (with regard to runway markings etc.) they should have been aware of the airport layout.