Landing NORDO at KDCA
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sevenstrokeroll:
My first flight into DCA was in 1967 on my semi-final check ride upgrading to captain. There were no special briefing pages in 1967. My company wouldn't let a captain go in his first time without a check airman. But, usually less stressful than my first entry.
No doubt that the place quickly became second nature.
Nonetheless, if it all worked as well as you seem to think it should, then there wouldn't be a half-dozen, or so, P-56 violations per month (that was the rate prior to 9-11, perhaps it is less now.) Almost all the violations were on Runway 36 (now 01) departure rather than missed approaches.
I recall being on a long downtown layover when I saw an EAL 727 fly north directly over the White House at about 500 feet. Later that day when I checked in at the DCA ramp for my flight out, I learned he had an engine failure at rotation. That gave him a get out of jail free card.
aterpster
as you know, most airlines have special information pages explaining odd or unique airports and their situations, procedures and restricted/prohibited airspace.
as you know, if you fly the published missed exactly, you will avoid the prohibited airspace..
and if you flew to DCA even once before in your career, you would know their were things to think about, and you probably briefed it before you were within 30 miles of the airport.
as you know, most airlines have special information pages explaining odd or unique airports and their situations, procedures and restricted/prohibited airspace.
as you know, if you fly the published missed exactly, you will avoid the prohibited airspace..
and if you flew to DCA even once before in your career, you would know their were things to think about, and you probably briefed it before you were within 30 miles of the airport.
No doubt that the place quickly became second nature.
Nonetheless, if it all worked as well as you seem to think it should, then there wouldn't be a half-dozen, or so, P-56 violations per month (that was the rate prior to 9-11, perhaps it is less now.) Almost all the violations were on Runway 36 (now 01) departure rather than missed approaches.
I recall being on a long downtown layover when I saw an EAL 727 fly north directly over the White House at about 500 feet. Later that day when I checked in at the DCA ramp for my flight out, I learned he had an engine failure at rotation. That gave him a get out of jail free card.
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aterpster
I'm sure pilots make mistakes...but why are we lumping in Prohibited airspace and landing at DCA as an uncontrolled airport.
you mentioned it happened more on departures than missed approaches. you and I both know that DCA is a demanding airport.
I'm sure pilots make mistakes...but why are we lumping in Prohibited airspace and landing at DCA as an uncontrolled airport.
you mentioned it happened more on departures than missed approaches. you and I both know that DCA is a demanding airport.
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sevenstrikeroll:
It's all pertinent to me because of the broad discussion about the circumstances. And, we have a very different view about the uncontrolled airport status of DCA when the controller wasn't talking.
Anyway, I guess this poor horse died a few messages ago, but thread creep is part of life on these forums.
I'm sure pilots make mistakes...but why are we lumping in Prohibited airspace and landing at DCA as an uncontrolled airport.
Anyway, I guess this poor horse died a few messages ago, but thread creep is part of life on these forums.
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I will say this. DCA should have unique , non routine , procedures. These procedures should be well known only to those who need to know them...eg: pilots, ATC, the UNITED STATES AIR FORCE, Coast Guard etc.
But when bureaucracy fails to think ahead, we have to think for ourselves.
And they lived happily ever after.
the end.
But when bureaucracy fails to think ahead, we have to think for ourselves.
And they lived happily ever after.
the end.
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SSR said it all, we just have to do what is required to land our plane safely. What these pilots did was what we all would have done. Once the airport was deemed uncontrolled the procedure was simple.
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bubbers44:
You just can't speak for all airline pilots.
And, who was the "deemor" or would it be the "deemee?"
What these pilots did was what we all would have done. Once the airport was deemed uncontrolled the procedure was simple.
And, who was the "deemor" or would it be the "deemee?"
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aterpster makes a good point...who is the deemor , deemee.
well, none of us on this forum were there...so the only people who could reasonably do anything meaningful were the crews of the two airliners and the tracon controller.
I wasn't there...Bubbers wasn't there...aterpster wasn't there, Lord Spandex was no where nearby, shell management wasn't there and RANDY BABBIT wasn't there.
In this country, we use the ''reasonable man'' concept. Reasonable men, the 5 involved, decided to land using what we can call, ''uncontrolled airport procedures".
I would say a jury of their peers, reasonable men, would find them NOT GUILTY of doing anything wrong.
peers by the way would be airline pilots for major US carriers, who have been to DCA...as pilots I should say, not as passengers.
The navy has a great concept, SOPA. Senior officer present afloat. Prior to radios, if someone had to make a decision, they made it. The senior guy there made it and it was law.
OUR SOPAs were the pilots on the United and American flights. I stand with them. I'm sure bubbers does too.
We don't deem anything...and neither can aterpster. Only the guys who were there are the deemers.
ok?
well, none of us on this forum were there...so the only people who could reasonably do anything meaningful were the crews of the two airliners and the tracon controller.
I wasn't there...Bubbers wasn't there...aterpster wasn't there, Lord Spandex was no where nearby, shell management wasn't there and RANDY BABBIT wasn't there.
In this country, we use the ''reasonable man'' concept. Reasonable men, the 5 involved, decided to land using what we can call, ''uncontrolled airport procedures".
I would say a jury of their peers, reasonable men, would find them NOT GUILTY of doing anything wrong.
peers by the way would be airline pilots for major US carriers, who have been to DCA...as pilots I should say, not as passengers.
The navy has a great concept, SOPA. Senior officer present afloat. Prior to radios, if someone had to make a decision, they made it. The senior guy there made it and it was law.
OUR SOPAs were the pilots on the United and American flights. I stand with them. I'm sure bubbers does too.
We don't deem anything...and neither can aterpster. Only the guys who were there are the deemers.
ok?
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sevenstrokeroll:
Since the NTSB is doing a full press investigation I'll leave the deeming to them. They will separate the wheat from the chaff in due course. In the meantime we both seem to have formed rather strong, divergent opinions about whether the airport was uncontrolled. That's what these forums are about.
The mission of the Navy is quite different than that of a Part 121 operator. Or, for that matter the authority and limits placed on a TRACON supervisor.
We don't deem anything...and neither can aterpster. Only the guys who were there are the deemers.
ok?
ok?
The mission of the Navy is quite different than that of a Part 121 operator. Or, for that matter the authority and limits placed on a TRACON supervisor.
"Who was the Deemor, and who the deemee?"
Per post #36,
"The TRACON approach controller advised the crew of American flight 1012 that the tower was apparently unattended, and that the flight would be handled as an arrival to an uncontrolled airport. The flight was again cleared for approach, and instructed to switch to the tower frequency. At 12:12 am, the crew returned to the tower frequency, still unable to make contact with the tower, made position reports while inbound, and landed on runway 1."
Looks fairly clear to me. TRACON first made the call (deemor) that the airport was "uncontrolled" and that uncontrolled airport procedures could be used. Crew apparently accepted the idea, based on their actions.
Per post #36,
"The TRACON approach controller advised the crew of American flight 1012 that the tower was apparently unattended, and that the flight would be handled as an arrival to an uncontrolled airport. The flight was again cleared for approach, and instructed to switch to the tower frequency. At 12:12 am, the crew returned to the tower frequency, still unable to make contact with the tower, made position reports while inbound, and landed on runway 1."
Looks fairly clear to me. TRACON first made the call (deemor) that the airport was "uncontrolled" and that uncontrolled airport procedures could be used. Crew apparently accepted the idea, based on their actions.
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The TRACON approach controller advised the crew of American flight 1012 that the tower was apparently unattended, and that the flight would be handled as an arrival to an uncontrolled airport.
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Pugilistic Animus:
Saracasm aside I would not have accepted their "authority" in this regard and have requested clearance to IAD.
To each his own.
I guess the TRACON has no authority---they were on board with the decision then why divert?
To each his own.
SM while I have to respect opposing viewpoint from pilots such as Aterpster---I don't see how you are contributing to this thread with no knowledge of airplane operations; do you just need to be heard?
SM
You are assuming facts not in evidence--that diverting to another airport demonstrably reduced the risks to the traveling public. While some pilots here disagree about the legality of operating at KDCA as an uncontrolled airport; there has been little quantifiable reason to believe that there was an elevated risk under the conditions found that evening.
If landing at an uncontrolled airport in Class B airspace with an American-registered airliner has elevated risk in your mind, why is it allowed outside of Class B (positive controlled airspace for you lacking in aviation experience) or in totally uncontrolled airspace?
GF
You are assuming facts not in evidence--that diverting to another airport demonstrably reduced the risks to the traveling public. While some pilots here disagree about the legality of operating at KDCA as an uncontrolled airport; there has been little quantifiable reason to believe that there was an elevated risk under the conditions found that evening.
If landing at an uncontrolled airport in Class B airspace with an American-registered airliner has elevated risk in your mind, why is it allowed outside of Class B (positive controlled airspace for you lacking in aviation experience) or in totally uncontrolled airspace?
GF
Last edited by galaxy flyer; 4th Apr 2011 at 01:20.
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SSR "what I mean is that DCA gets your attention. Certainly by the time the captains in question had made captain with united and american, they had been to DCA before."
You never know when you'll be surprised. Taxiing in at DFW, AA CA asks for assistance. FO says that's the normal stuff/route/etc. CA - I've never been here. FO-What? DFW?? CA - Never. Jumpseat, yes. Passenger, yes. Pilot? Never.
Something like 18 yrs and never flown into the airline's main hub.
Except for about a 6 month period almost 10 yrs ago I'll bet he hasn't been there since. And if he has his way he'll never fly into DFW again. 
You never know when you'll be surprised. Taxiing in at DFW, AA CA asks for assistance. FO says that's the normal stuff/route/etc. CA - I've never been here. FO-What? DFW?? CA - Never. Jumpseat, yes. Passenger, yes. Pilot? Never.
Something like 18 yrs and never flown into the airline's main hub.
Except for about a 6 month period almost 10 yrs ago I'll bet he hasn't been there since. And if he has his way he'll never fly into DFW again.