Landing NORDO at KDCA
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I don't think LSM is Anthony Atkielski, but he certainly suffers from delusions of grandeur, with his Lord moniker and his condescending attitude. I have no doubt that he will take great delight in replying with a facetious statement, however as the ignore button has now been employed, he will be able to enjoy it far more than I can.
Well done guys for using your Common Sense and landing. Having weighed up the options, the best command decision I have seen made for some time.
p.s. I think we have someone trying to usurp 411's title as most irritating poster. A goal to which LSM aspires, but will probably never achieve.
Well done guys for using your Common Sense and landing. Having weighed up the options, the best command decision I have seen made for some time.
p.s. I think we have someone trying to usurp 411's title as most irritating poster. A goal to which LSM aspires, but will probably never achieve.
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Grumpy, I have no idea who that is.
stuckgear, is the tail light not a nav light? Is it white as well? They're rhetorical questions, you don't need to answer them. There are thousands of lights on an airfield from the sodium flood lights to the HI runway lights. Sadly an aeroplane is a small collection of maybe half a dozen lights which are pretty insignificant compared to all the rest.
I know what I can and can't see, an aeroplane on a runway isn't as easy to spot as some people are making out, even if you know it's there.
Anyway, I though you were ignoring me
stuckgear, is the tail light not a nav light? Is it white as well? They're rhetorical questions, you don't need to answer them. There are thousands of lights on an airfield from the sodium flood lights to the HI runway lights. Sadly an aeroplane is a small collection of maybe half a dozen lights which are pretty insignificant compared to all the rest.
I know what I can and can't see, an aeroplane on a runway isn't as easy to spot as some people are making out, even if you know it's there.
Anyway, I though you were ignoring me
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Hello all,
Having just read this thread, I thought I would offer my humble opinion.
I would imagine that there are quite a few more threats and risks involved in sending a student on their first solo night nav between uncontrolled country airfields in an old Cessna or Piper than landing a modern airliner with two highly experienced well trained crew at a large international airport, that is for the most part strictly controlled. Personally I think they made a good call and it was within the law.
Before anybody asks me to provide details on my level of experience here they are:
330TT (Hence the "humble" part)
Having just read this thread, I thought I would offer my humble opinion.
I would imagine that there are quite a few more threats and risks involved in sending a student on their first solo night nav between uncontrolled country airfields in an old Cessna or Piper than landing a modern airliner with two highly experienced well trained crew at a large international airport, that is for the most part strictly controlled. Personally I think they made a good call and it was within the law.
Before anybody asks me to provide details on my level of experience here they are:
330TT (Hence the "humble" part)
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Also I think that if they insist on having only one controller on the graveyard shift, then they should make it compulsory for the controller to use one of those chairs that the old school railway switch board operators used.
Basically a normal bar chair without the back rest, except it only has one leg in the center of the seat. Quite easy to balance on while awake however should one fall asleep gravity takes over and the person occupying seat is rudely and abruptly awoken by the floor.
Basically a normal bar chair without the back rest, except it only has one leg in the center of the seat. Quite easy to balance on while awake however should one fall asleep gravity takes over and the person occupying seat is rudely and abruptly awoken by the floor.
Its not the uncontrolled part that would worry me
Operating a 121 flight into an uncontrolled field is not a big issue. They would have being in radar contact with Potomac and on the CTAF. There are locations in the US, Steamboat comes to mind, where you have RJ's etc operating into uncontrolled fields with no radar coverage. It is not unsafe to do this as long as that is the plan.
What would have worried me was, why is the tower not responding? It seems no one could answer that and I would have diverted. A lot of strange things can happen. At Newark the power and the back up to the tower was cut by a pile driving crew. At Hartford there was an incident where an MD-80 ingested tree branches on final. The root reason was ultimately bad glazing in the tower cab!
The point being, if something isn't right I'd want to know why before heading on in. It may well have being they had company info from the ground that everything was OK. What surprises me is that the Airport security was not sent to check the tower out.
20driver
What would have worried me was, why is the tower not responding? It seems no one could answer that and I would have diverted. A lot of strange things can happen. At Newark the power and the back up to the tower was cut by a pile driving crew. At Hartford there was an incident where an MD-80 ingested tree branches on final. The root reason was ultimately bad glazing in the tower cab!
The point being, if something isn't right I'd want to know why before heading on in. It may well have being they had company info from the ground that everything was OK. What surprises me is that the Airport security was not sent to check the tower out.
20driver
Basically a normal bar chair without the back rest, except it only has one leg in the center of the seat. Quite easy to balance on while awake however should one fall asleep gravity takes over and the person occupying seat is rudely and abruptly awoken by the floor.
I think the fairest thing would be an FAA opinion along the lines of "That was okay, sort of, but DON'T DO IT AGAIN!" telling everyone that in future they should divert if there is no reply from the tower for unknown reasons.
...but it's never a learning process like you described wrt to FAA enforcement--NEVER!
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Posted by Lord Spandex Master -
misd-
I think I understand. You think I sit in an office with no comprehension of reality. You think I don't fly for a living and haven't for more than a decade and a half. You think I can't solve problems and you think I think that the 'guys' didn't do fine.
Is that about right? One word - Wrong.
If that's not what you meant then I can make no other sense of your post.
Must try harder.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The post wasn't addressed to you. It was a general observation.
The guys had an unexpected problem to deal with. Number of times it's happened in aviation that the majority of pilots are aware of? Maybe never?
They used standard U.S. 'non-controlled' procedures and went home.
Now, with days of hindsight and numerous calls to subject matter experts and lawyers, the FAA is going "harumph, harumph, how dare they!?"
misd-
I think I understand. You think I sit in an office with no comprehension of reality. You think I don't fly for a living and haven't for more than a decade and a half. You think I can't solve problems and you think I think that the 'guys' didn't do fine.
Is that about right? One word - Wrong.
If that's not what you meant then I can make no other sense of your post.
Must try harder.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The post wasn't addressed to you. It was a general observation.
The guys had an unexpected problem to deal with. Number of times it's happened in aviation that the majority of pilots are aware of? Maybe never?
They used standard U.S. 'non-controlled' procedures and went home.
Now, with days of hindsight and numerous calls to subject matter experts and lawyers, the FAA is going "harumph, harumph, how dare they!?"
Last edited by misd-agin; 31st Mar 2011 at 19:59. Reason: clarification
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I think everybody went home, the controller gets spanked, the FAA took five minutes to decide what went wrong and life goes on. Not a big deal. Solution, don't fall asleep in the control tower. Investigation complete.
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Yes, well... I guess it must be that systematic approach to safety that they have tried to get us to apply. This was a systems failure and it needs to be fixed in a systematic way, not by just suspending a guy who fell asleep at oh-dark-30 and thinking that has sorted out the problem!
I think some of us are missing the point by simply saying, "Well done that crew! Safe landing, no probs, nothing to see, please disperse!" This was not the way the system is meant to work and the safety net there had some obvious holes that I would like to see patched up.
To go into chest-pounding mode, suggesting that only a sissy would have done anything but press on to land in somewhat unknown circumstances.... Well, bully for all of you macho men but the point is exactly that we should have a system that doesn't leave us needing to make a decision such as that on the spur of the moment, perhaps overlooking some important considerations. Not least, there was no idea exactly why that tower went quiet. Too, had the controller perhaps cleared a vehicle onto that runway before taking his unscheduled snooze? Again, no real idea, hmmm?
I think we can all envision looking right at the destination runway, all lit up and looking good, with the only obvious problem being "no answer" from the tower, a seemingly minor detail. How about the long chain of possible problems that minor detail might bring with it, though? How about making a mess of the landing, as sometimes happens even to the best of us, and then having no one to hit the crash alarm?
Are you landing without the required fire protection if the man meant to call the Fire Department is asleep at the switch? It seems that way to me, sort of! Of course I had to think that one through; it certainly would not have occurred to me in flight when I was busy sorting this one out!
I would like to see this incident looked into in depth, thoroughly analysed. That is all. If most of you think that it was already sorted out by two safe landings, well.... Good luck with that approach to aviation but it is one I was trained to get over. There is a little more to safety than just skill and daring.
I think some of us are missing the point by simply saying, "Well done that crew! Safe landing, no probs, nothing to see, please disperse!" This was not the way the system is meant to work and the safety net there had some obvious holes that I would like to see patched up.
To go into chest-pounding mode, suggesting that only a sissy would have done anything but press on to land in somewhat unknown circumstances.... Well, bully for all of you macho men but the point is exactly that we should have a system that doesn't leave us needing to make a decision such as that on the spur of the moment, perhaps overlooking some important considerations. Not least, there was no idea exactly why that tower went quiet. Too, had the controller perhaps cleared a vehicle onto that runway before taking his unscheduled snooze? Again, no real idea, hmmm?
I think we can all envision looking right at the destination runway, all lit up and looking good, with the only obvious problem being "no answer" from the tower, a seemingly minor detail. How about the long chain of possible problems that minor detail might bring with it, though? How about making a mess of the landing, as sometimes happens even to the best of us, and then having no one to hit the crash alarm?
Are you landing without the required fire protection if the man meant to call the Fire Department is asleep at the switch? It seems that way to me, sort of! Of course I had to think that one through; it certainly would not have occurred to me in flight when I was busy sorting this one out!
I would like to see this incident looked into in depth, thoroughly analysed. That is all. If most of you think that it was already sorted out by two safe landings, well.... Good luck with that approach to aviation but it is one I was trained to get over. There is a little more to safety than just skill and daring.
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It sounds like you live in europe by your response. We don't do things that way here. We think things through and do what makes sense. We don't think we are better than you but we think differently. Our guys did a normal job of what any US pilot would have done. Make the landing legal and land. It was made an uncontrolled airport and they landed. Legally.
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It sounds like you live in europe by your response. We don't do things that way here. We think things through and do what makes sense
What a monumental ego you must have.
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Lord Spandex Masher.
I have one of those giant egos. If something needs doing, we do it. We don't wait around for a giant edict from the Queen. We do things, we get things done. We don't wait for the European union to issue an opinion. We don't wait for Lawyers who don't know jack about the sky to offer a legal opinion.
We think, we act and we do hope the lawyers will see our way...After all, just waiting for "orders" can screw things up.
I am reminded of an incident at the Pearl Harbor attack in 1941. Two fighter pilots took off, without orders and attacked the enemy. Mind you, not legally at war, no declaration, no nothing.
They got awarded distinguished flying crosses. A noble award in and of itself. But they were placed in nomination of the Congressional Medal of honor (as it is known in the press). They didn't get it. WHY? They were not acting under orders.
BUT YOU SEE< THEY DID THE RIGHT THING ANYWAY>
Many pilots try to do things right. It takes guts to do the right thing.
Yeah, we have monumental egos. Go ahead, make my day.
I have one of those giant egos. If something needs doing, we do it. We don't wait around for a giant edict from the Queen. We do things, we get things done. We don't wait for the European union to issue an opinion. We don't wait for Lawyers who don't know jack about the sky to offer a legal opinion.
We think, we act and we do hope the lawyers will see our way...After all, just waiting for "orders" can screw things up.
I am reminded of an incident at the Pearl Harbor attack in 1941. Two fighter pilots took off, without orders and attacked the enemy. Mind you, not legally at war, no declaration, no nothing.
They got awarded distinguished flying crosses. A noble award in and of itself. But they were placed in nomination of the Congressional Medal of honor (as it is known in the press). They didn't get it. WHY? They were not acting under orders.
BUT YOU SEE< THEY DID THE RIGHT THING ANYWAY>
Many pilots try to do things right. It takes guts to do the right thing.
Yeah, we have monumental egos. Go ahead, make my day.
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bubbers made the comment and I suported him...you see, you have been questioning judgement of the pilots in question...and we have made our choices and support them.
you finally said, after eons it seemed, that you would have landed too.
why not be upfront.
you finally said, after eons it seemed, that you would have landed too.
why not be upfront.
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Actually Bubbers made the comment
Implying that the Europeans are incapable of thought and lack sense. His statement also implies that the Americans, you, are the only people capable of such things.
That is hugely egotistical. Hence my comment.
Do you still support your fellow countryman in his claims that Americans and not Europeans are capable of though and the use of sense?
You do not need a monumental ego to be a pilot. You need a cool head, something which you failed to demonstrate in your previous post.
No I haven't, I've been asking questions about the process and legality of the situation. I've made occasional statements about my experiences. But your defensive posture has blinded you to that.
In fact what I actually said was I would probably have landed but, on further thought, I changed my mind (I hope that's ok with you!) and have edited my post accordingly.
It sounds like you live in europe by your response. We don't do things that way here. We think things through and do what makes sense
That is hugely egotistical. Hence my comment.
Do you still support your fellow countryman in his claims that Americans and not Europeans are capable of though and the use of sense?
You do not need a monumental ego to be a pilot. You need a cool head, something which you failed to demonstrate in your previous post.
you have been questioning judgement of the pilots in question
In fact what I actually said was I would probably have landed but, on further thought, I changed my mind (I hope that's ok with you!) and have edited my post accordingly.
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cool head
I don't think you know what is required to be a good pilot.
so, while bubbers and I would have landed safely, at the right airport, you would still be circling around waiting for instructions from the royal aircraft establishment.
why not view the movie, "no highway(in the sky)" and be a bit more like professor honey instead of the captain of the reindeer.
I don't think you know what is required to be a good pilot.
so, while bubbers and I would have landed safely, at the right airport, you would still be circling around waiting for instructions from the royal aircraft establishment.
why not view the movie, "no highway(in the sky)" and be a bit more like professor honey instead of the captain of the reindeer.
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I don't think you know what is required to be a good pilot.
you would still be circling around waiting for instructions from the royal aircraft establishment
I see that you ignored the question in my last post. Why won't you answer it?
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So how many days did you have to decide yes I would land as their decision . Now you say you wouldn't have landed after days of thinking about it. They had a few minutes and I think they did everything right. We just do what makes sense and they did just that.
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I would prefer to ignore you...but sometimes you just have to ''wise some guys up a bit.''
how would you know it would only take 15 minutes for someone to wake up?
would you have dipped into your 45 minute reserve fuel?
would you keep circling till you were out of fuel?
yes, in answer to your question, and probably because it become a part of us over here.
how would you know it would only take 15 minutes for someone to wake up?
would you have dipped into your 45 minute reserve fuel?
would you keep circling till you were out of fuel?
yes, in answer to your question, and probably because it become a part of us over here.
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Bubbers,
What difference does it make? I didn't have to make a decision in a few minutes. If I had to make a decision in a few minutes then I would have.
You understand the importance of the word 'probably' in my post?
SSR,
Go for it, I welcome your superior knowledge.
I wouldn't. In this case however, that is all I would have had to wait is it not? But neither would I be still circling around as you suggest would I? I mean, I carry some extra fuel but not days worth. I would have made a considered decision instead of rushing to get on the ground.
I would have made a decision before then.
Is that a serious question?!
So, Europeans are incapable of thinking, solving problems and have no sense? Are you really saying that? Really, on a board heavily populated by Europeans? If I was an American I would be embarrassed by you.
What difference does it make? I didn't have to make a decision in a few minutes. If I had to make a decision in a few minutes then I would have.
You understand the importance of the word 'probably' in my post?
SSR,
...but sometimes you just have to ''wise some guys up a bit.''
how would you know it would only take 15 minutes for someone to wake up?
would you have dipped into your 45 minute reserve fuel?
would you keep circling till you were out of fuel?
yes, in answer to your question, and probably because it become a part of us over here.