Air India Captain Arrested
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: MI
Posts: 570
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK.....gotta get in here, I guess.
Seems like a simple solution: don't allow any aircraft flown by Indian pilots to land in any other country.
Hello DC-ATE, it appears that you have not posted on the forums for several weeks. Why not take a few moments to ask a question, help provide a solution or just engage in a debate with other members in any one of the forums?
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 2,527
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's all part of the process
I'm a CFI, and most of the students I see are from India. There seems to be a culture of "just pay to pass the exams". This exists not only with those who have attained their certificates, but also those who have just started their training.
They know once they go back to India, they will have to pay a certain amount of money to "clear the exams". They've already budgeted for that cost before their first solo.
That's not to say that they all do it. A few have told me that they have no intention of bribing anybody. However, it is more than a little concerning when people speak so casually about obtaining licenses illegally.
They know once they go back to India, they will have to pay a certain amount of money to "clear the exams". They've already budgeted for that cost before their first solo.
That's not to say that they all do it. A few have told me that they have no intention of bribing anybody. However, it is more than a little concerning when people speak so casually about obtaining licenses illegally.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In a far better place
Posts: 2,480
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aviation authorites in the real world need to step up to the plate. Obtain advance notice of Indian pilots flying into their countries. Contact the DGCA to verify the authenticity of the certificates of those airmen.
Routine SAFA inspections will not cut it as the potential risk to life in the air and on the ground will have been done by the time the aircraft parks on stand.
Cooperation is required by all authorities including the DGCA. If no cooperation on the part of the Indian carriers or the DGCA, the other countries should exercise their authority in banning fights from India entering their airspace.
Who knows... revised overfly permits should be explored too for the same reasons above.
Safe flying to the rest of us who follow the rules
!
Routine SAFA inspections will not cut it as the potential risk to life in the air and on the ground will have been done by the time the aircraft parks on stand.
Cooperation is required by all authorities including the DGCA. If no cooperation on the part of the Indian carriers or the DGCA, the other countries should exercise their authority in banning fights from India entering their airspace.
Who knows... revised overfly permits should be explored too for the same reasons above.
Safe flying to the rest of us who follow the rules
!
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 665
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Eventually the Sheikh was stopped by DGCAM Oman
thos1n, if you never heard of the sheikh's shennanagins, you had a very protected life. He was occasionally in the habit of loading his Lamborghini in the cargo bay on the flight he was operating and then, on arrival, blithely announcing that he wouldn't be operating back, but extending his stay.
It got to the point where Gulf Air took to putting an FO on his flights as a passenger just in case he pulled this stunt. This came to a head when the good sheikh spotted an FO he knew amongst the passengers while taking a break mid flight and asked him, as you do, why he was on the flight. When the FO replied that he was on duty and there in case he, the sheikh, decided to extend his stay, the good sheikh hit the roof.
What's of particular interest is where he is now.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Somewhere over the Rainbow
Posts: 735
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
India may have 4000 'fake' pilots
Yipee......... So in India roads might actually be safer than the skies!!!
Yipee......... So in India roads might actually be safer than the skies!!!
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: here and there
Posts: 242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
re:captjns
captjns wrote
OK, so let's examine this solution to the Indian "fake" pilot problem slightly further. A measure such as the one you suggest will most likely elicit an equal , if not more high-handed response from the Indian DGCA. Imagine , the UAE GCAA asking EK to furnish all personal info of the EK pilots who operate the 160 odd weekly flights to India. Now, add EY, AA, FD, QR etc. etc. to the list and you get the picture.....
captjns, the Indian DGCA and the pilots in question are equally responsible for this mess.
I blame the DGCA for having one of the most antiquated ATPL exam process. Pass percentages are abysmally low , the syllabus outdated and once the candidate clears the written , he/she has to appear for an oral exam.
The whole process is geared up for corrupt practices. Middlemen, touts, agents , facilitators ...call them what you want thrive in this environment.
Pilots who pay feed this corrupt system and have shamed themselves and the rest of us and brought dis-repute to the country. Your greed in quickly jumping over to the left seat with no consideration of the consequences has caused permanent damage to your and your colleagues reputation which will take years to correct.
Captjns, What is the solution then? Better late than never, I think . What the DGCA is doing now is good. Verify all the licensed pilots credentials thoroughly. Publicize , Arrest and disqualify those that have forged their way to get the licenses. Clean up the rot within and make examples public of the action taken. The new director seems to be on the right path but needs help from all quarters. It is an uphill battle, no doubt , but requires drastic action for any credibility to be restored.
Airlines also need to take a good look at themselves and see how their hiring/upgrade methods are done. Remember, it's not only about crewing the planes, it takes only one major accident to destroy your airline.
To watch the way we run this country with the scams, politicians, greed , red tape etc. etc. does get depressing at times. But, I am an eternal optimist and do believe in the power of our lethargic democracy .Like an old , run-down maruti 800 (car) , the country chugs along but it's in dire need of some major maintenance and we have the potential to do it right......
maslama
Aviation authorites in the real world need to step up to the plate. Obtain advance notice of Indian pilots flying into their countries. Contact the DGCA to verify the authenticity of the certificates of those airmen.
Routine SAFA inspections will not cut it as the potential risk to life in the air and on the ground will have been done by the time the aircraft parks on stand.
Routine SAFA inspections will not cut it as the potential risk to life in the air and on the ground will have been done by the time the aircraft parks on stand.
captjns, the Indian DGCA and the pilots in question are equally responsible for this mess.
I blame the DGCA for having one of the most antiquated ATPL exam process. Pass percentages are abysmally low , the syllabus outdated and once the candidate clears the written , he/she has to appear for an oral exam.
The whole process is geared up for corrupt practices. Middlemen, touts, agents , facilitators ...call them what you want thrive in this environment.Pilots who pay feed this corrupt system and have shamed themselves and the rest of us and brought dis-repute to the country. Your greed in quickly jumping over to the left seat with no consideration of the consequences has caused permanent damage to your and your colleagues reputation which will take years to correct.
Captjns, What is the solution then? Better late than never, I think . What the DGCA is doing now is good. Verify all the licensed pilots credentials thoroughly. Publicize , Arrest and disqualify those that have forged their way to get the licenses. Clean up the rot within and make examples public of the action taken. The new director seems to be on the right path but needs help from all quarters. It is an uphill battle, no doubt , but requires drastic action for any credibility to be restored.
Airlines also need to take a good look at themselves and see how their hiring/upgrade methods are done. Remember, it's not only about crewing the planes, it takes only one major accident to destroy your airline.
To watch the way we run this country with the scams, politicians, greed , red tape etc. etc. does get depressing at times. But, I am an eternal optimist and do believe in the power of our lethargic democracy .Like an old , run-down maruti 800 (car) , the country chugs along but it's in dire need of some major maintenance and we have the potential to do it right......
maslama
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In a far better place
Posts: 2,480
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree Masalama, the aviation system within India is beyond antiquated.
On some issues, the unions are strong enough to convince their politicians, and courts to require the DGCA amend certain procedures, and requirements.
However, it would appear these same unions remain silent concerning airmen certification process as far as testing is concerned, the issue of the Assisted Takeoff and Landings.
On one India wants Indians to fly for their country's carriers. However Indias attitude is a direct hindrance towards their own desires.
On a daily basis, there articles concerning unqualified pilots are appearing in news papers in India, ie... Times of India, Hidu Times. It appears, on the surface, there is a clear and present danger that there are far more unqualified airmen acting as PIC then meets the eye.
It appears this is an increasing systemic problem coming to the surface. Perhaps other countries should consider scrutiny equal to that of Indonesia carriers and their pilots too.
Airlines establish or emphasize procedures when one or two err from the straight and narrow or find themselves in trouble.
Countries ban foreign carriers from there soil if their is evidence of violations of safety of operation too. This situation deserves attention by other countries as it is evident that malfeasance is afoot. I feel bad for those who may be put under undo scrutiny because of the few who were so arrogant to think that the regulations promulgated by the DGCA does not appy to them.
I'm sure Masalama, you'll agree that the general population both in the air and on the ground should not be exposed to undeserved risks at the hands of the likes of unqualified crews.
On some issues, the unions are strong enough to convince their politicians, and courts to require the DGCA amend certain procedures, and requirements.
However, it would appear these same unions remain silent concerning airmen certification process as far as testing is concerned, the issue of the Assisted Takeoff and Landings.
On one India wants Indians to fly for their country's carriers. However Indias attitude is a direct hindrance towards their own desires.
On a daily basis, there articles concerning unqualified pilots are appearing in news papers in India, ie... Times of India, Hidu Times. It appears, on the surface, there is a clear and present danger that there are far more unqualified airmen acting as PIC then meets the eye.
It appears this is an increasing systemic problem coming to the surface. Perhaps other countries should consider scrutiny equal to that of Indonesia carriers and their pilots too.
Airlines establish or emphasize procedures when one or two err from the straight and narrow or find themselves in trouble.
Countries ban foreign carriers from there soil if their is evidence of violations of safety of operation too. This situation deserves attention by other countries as it is evident that malfeasance is afoot. I feel bad for those who may be put under undo scrutiny because of the few who were so arrogant to think that the regulations promulgated by the DGCA does not appy to them.
I'm sure Masalama, you'll agree that the general population both in the air and on the ground should not be exposed to undeserved risks at the hands of the likes of unqualified crews.
Last edited by captjns; 14th Mar 2011 at 08:36.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: negative RAIM.....
Posts: 329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
masalama.... I do and do not agree with some of what you have written. I do most certainly believe your desire to get things right is admirable.
So, if the exams are too hard they should be made easier? I vehemently disagree with that. The JAA, NZ CAA and Oz CASA examinations are very hard to pass. (The FAA ATP is at the other end of the spectrum I must admit!) Chat to some pilots about the Oz CASA Instrument Rating exam or the JAA flight planning and loading... With pass marks only given for a result > 80% in the exam some study and sit them multiple times. But I'll guarantee they know their stuff.
Some things tested may be view as antiquated in today's airliner world yet the foundations of theory must be in place to appreciate the more sophisticated systems fail. Eg; if you can't grasp the concept of gyros then the requirements and needs for high latitude flying will also fail you. (Surprising how few people can calculate a 1:60 or even stay 1 step ahead of the FMC by calculating their own descent profile, let alone why passing overhead a DME it doesn't read 0 nm or appreciate a synoptic chart, Vmcg vs Vmcg, etc, etc....!!)
Perhaps the way the exams are sat needs to criticized more, rather than the exams themselves? Too true: when the system leaves itself open to corruption then it will be! (Eg the verbal exam).
If the requirement is for for a PhD in Aerodynamics or navigation via sextant, if that's what is, that's what is. CHEATING, LYING and as such committing FRAUD and the risking the lives of countless people is the main concern here. (And yes, exam question do need to be constantly reviewed to be kept relevant, but that is for a different thread i think and not what's being discussed here).
The skill and knowledge level at AI is below dangerous levels already. Just because the system is criminally negligent and corrupt as all hell as to how broken it is, doesn't mean it should be made easier. Fix the system, not lower the bar further.
Ummm....Mangalore? Anyone remember that? Issues were raised, corruption and disgraceful levels of safety and training exposed.....and what?
The findings of the AI 744 engine fire would usually send shock waves down any legitimate and accountable civil aviation department, but at AI and the DGCA? HA! (Accident: Air India B744 at Mumbai on Sep 4th 2009, engine fire during taxi out).
AI and the entire DGCA needs to be swept and scrubbed in a vat of acid, a la KAL style. Shut the ba$ards down, kick them out of the US & JAA skies because very, very soon there will be a smoking hole and we'll all wonder how it happened and what could have been done to stop it. NO ONE WANTS IT TO COME TO THAT (again!).
They were threatened with Category 2 status yet narrowly avoided it. (The fact that they had orders for how many 777's and 787's??? - conspiracy theory, I know...)
Indian Aviation Indian airlines: Not safe enough? - eTurboNews.com
I blame the DGCA for having one of the most antiquated ATPL exam process. Pass percentages are abysmally low , the syllabus outdated and once the candidate clears the written , he/she has to appear for an oral exam....
Some things tested may be view as antiquated in today's airliner world yet the foundations of theory must be in place to appreciate the more sophisticated systems fail. Eg; if you can't grasp the concept of gyros then the requirements and needs for high latitude flying will also fail you. (Surprising how few people can calculate a 1:60 or even stay 1 step ahead of the FMC by calculating their own descent profile, let alone why passing overhead a DME it doesn't read 0 nm or appreciate a synoptic chart, Vmcg vs Vmcg, etc, etc....!!)
Perhaps the way the exams are sat needs to criticized more, rather than the exams themselves? Too true: when the system leaves itself open to corruption then it will be! (Eg the verbal exam).
If the requirement is for for a PhD in Aerodynamics or navigation via sextant, if that's what is, that's what is. CHEATING, LYING and as such committing FRAUD and the risking the lives of countless people is the main concern here. (And yes, exam question do need to be constantly reviewed to be kept relevant, but that is for a different thread i think and not what's being discussed here).
The skill and knowledge level at AI is below dangerous levels already. Just because the system is criminally negligent and corrupt as all hell as to how broken it is, doesn't mean it should be made easier. Fix the system, not lower the bar further.
it takes only one major accident to destroy your airline.
The findings of the AI 744 engine fire would usually send shock waves down any legitimate and accountable civil aviation department, but at AI and the DGCA? HA! (Accident: Air India B744 at Mumbai on Sep 4th 2009, engine fire during taxi out).
AI and the entire DGCA needs to be swept and scrubbed in a vat of acid, a la KAL style. Shut the ba$ards down, kick them out of the US & JAA skies because very, very soon there will be a smoking hole and we'll all wonder how it happened and what could have been done to stop it. NO ONE WANTS IT TO COME TO THAT (again!).
They were threatened with Category 2 status yet narrowly avoided it. (The fact that they had orders for how many 777's and 787's??? - conspiracy theory, I know...)
Indian Aviation Indian airlines: Not safe enough? - eTurboNews.com
Join Date: May 2002
Location: dubai
Posts: 942
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The UK CAA ATPL examinations in the '70's really were not really relevant to aviation in general. A lot of it was nothing more than interesting but useless information. What the UK CAA wanted was for candidates to absorb a certain amount of information and then sit the examinations and pass. This was their system of weeding out. Anything less and they decided you were not fit, as far as they were concerned, to be in command of an aircraft with a total weight of more than 12,5000lbs.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mostly hotels
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
yipee......... So in India roads might actually be safer than the skies!!!
i strongly disagree with this statement... wannabe......what about the million fake drivers.
lol ..i am a genuine ATPL holder in India..guys its not that bad .
i strongly disagree with this statement... wannabe......what about the million fake drivers.
lol ..i am a genuine ATPL holder in India..guys its not that bad .
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: delhiNCR
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Indian Pilots Wronged by the System
A lot of Indian Pilots have been a victim of the system. Cheating has been in a number of ways:
1. You passed because you were son/daughter of an insider.--No one can burst this type--their papers are in order.
2. You passed theory exams because your father was a Politician or a bureaucrat--eg. Rahul Mahajan--no one can burst them, Police or CBI can investigate them but they will get a clean chit.
3. Those who cheated during theory exams and passed or who got a third person to impersonate them.--they can't be busted for past deeds as they are over and done with.
4. The guys who will suffer are those who paid touts, even thru Bank Drafts, the touts in turn colluded with minneal officials and gave them a Licence without even bothering to keep the examination section in the loop (or is it without sharing the loot). These guys are less guilty because most of them paid because either the were being deliberately failed by staff with vested interests or an examination system which tries to assess theoretical knowledge for discharge of a skill task. Moreover, DGCA has no Defined Syllabus, no Defined Reading Material, no defined question bank. They cheated to only keep up with the cheats from the first three groups. I may add that some in this group may be outright cheats and deserving punishment. The best way to identify them is to hold a FAIR Exam with a defined syllabus and publicly available question pool. (A publicly available question pool is OK because this is not a competitive exam, it is a measure of assessing whether the individual meets Minimum Knowledge standards.)
The use of Bank Drafts drawn in favour of DGCA points to the fact that there is a Fraud Bank Account in this name and at least one Bank Manager is also involved in allowing the looters to siphon off the money.
The whole system needs cleaning up.
1. You passed because you were son/daughter of an insider.--No one can burst this type--their papers are in order.
2. You passed theory exams because your father was a Politician or a bureaucrat--eg. Rahul Mahajan--no one can burst them, Police or CBI can investigate them but they will get a clean chit.
3. Those who cheated during theory exams and passed or who got a third person to impersonate them.--they can't be busted for past deeds as they are over and done with.
4. The guys who will suffer are those who paid touts, even thru Bank Drafts, the touts in turn colluded with minneal officials and gave them a Licence without even bothering to keep the examination section in the loop (or is it without sharing the loot). These guys are less guilty because most of them paid because either the were being deliberately failed by staff with vested interests or an examination system which tries to assess theoretical knowledge for discharge of a skill task. Moreover, DGCA has no Defined Syllabus, no Defined Reading Material, no defined question bank. They cheated to only keep up with the cheats from the first three groups. I may add that some in this group may be outright cheats and deserving punishment. The best way to identify them is to hold a FAIR Exam with a defined syllabus and publicly available question pool. (A publicly available question pool is OK because this is not a competitive exam, it is a measure of assessing whether the individual meets Minimum Knowledge standards.)
The use of Bank Drafts drawn in favour of DGCA points to the fact that there is a Fraud Bank Account in this name and at least one Bank Manager is also involved in allowing the looters to siphon off the money.
The whole system needs cleaning up.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Somewhere over the Rainbow
Posts: 735
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Willfly............. Even the drivers with genuine licenses drive like idiots. They drive in the same manner as they stand in line pushing and jostling to get in front as if there were no tomorrow.
I however do agree with you that the Indian skies over the past 20 years have shown an improving trend (read fatal crashes and before we get into Mangalore lets take all airlines and all aircraft movements) and while incidents are there, it will be interesting to see them as a percentage of aircraft movements that has also grown exponentially over the past 2 decades.
That said there should be harsh treatment dealt out to those trying to skip or falsify. In the end corruption is bred by the common man in India who is willing to pay to jump the line. What would happen to corruption if we just said no...............sadly the person next to us would say yes and the cycle will carry on!
I however do agree with you that the Indian skies over the past 20 years have shown an improving trend (read fatal crashes and before we get into Mangalore lets take all airlines and all aircraft movements) and while incidents are there, it will be interesting to see them as a percentage of aircraft movements that has also grown exponentially over the past 2 decades.
That said there should be harsh treatment dealt out to those trying to skip or falsify. In the end corruption is bred by the common man in India who is willing to pay to jump the line. What would happen to corruption if we just said no...............sadly the person next to us would say yes and the cycle will carry on!
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: delhiNCR
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When the PM Leads the Corrupt-What do you do?
When the PM Leads the Corrupt-What do you do?
Any views?
Remember what happened to IIT Enginner Satyendra Dubey of National Highway Authority who complained under his own name to the then PM, Atal Behari Vajpayee, only to get guuned down.
Any views?
Remember what happened to IIT Enginner Satyendra Dubey of National Highway Authority who complained under his own name to the then PM, Atal Behari Vajpayee, only to get guuned down.
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: delhiNCR
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is best and deserves reproduction here:
"I blame the DGCA for having one of the most antiquated ATPL exam process. Pass percentages are abysmally low , the syllabus outdated and once the candidate clears the written , he/she has to appear for an oral exam. The whole process is geared up for corrupt practices. Middlemen, touts, agents , facilitators ...call them what you want thrive in this environment."
"I blame the DGCA for having one of the most antiquated ATPL exam process. Pass percentages are abysmally low , the syllabus outdated and once the candidate clears the written , he/she has to appear for an oral exam.
The whole process is geared up for corrupt practices. Middlemen, touts, agents , facilitators ...call them what you want thrive in this environment."
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wannabe...
You say that aviation in India has improved in the last 20 years, but, given the amount of info coming out regarding corruption and unqualified crews, I wonder if the safety record numbers are due more to the advances in technology- ie: making aircraft 'idiot-proof' and the increased use of automation--just a thought...
You say that aviation in India has improved in the last 20 years, but, given the amount of info coming out regarding corruption and unqualified crews, I wonder if the safety record numbers are due more to the advances in technology- ie: making aircraft 'idiot-proof' and the increased use of automation--just a thought...
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US
Posts: 285
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The cheats that have been exposed are the sacrificial lambs. The problem is so widespread, as corruption is a way of life in India. I'll lay my pension, if all the cheats were rounded up, civil aviation would grind to a halt over night, down there.
As mentioned previously, expose a few of the expendable to calm the masses then it's business as usual.
Yes I can sort of understand why they maybe tempted to cheat or pay bribes as going about something the honest way, in a country where corruption is pandemic,will get you nowhere. This is why it will take generations to wipe out, as corruption is like a cancer.
As mentioned previously, expose a few of the expendable to calm the masses then it's business as usual.
Yes I can sort of understand why they maybe tempted to cheat or pay bribes as going about something the honest way, in a country where corruption is pandemic,will get you nowhere. This is why it will take generations to wipe out, as corruption is like a cancer.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Somewhere over the Rainbow
Posts: 735
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wonder if the safety record numbers are due more to the advances in technology- ie: making aircraft 'idiot-proof' and the increased use of automation--just a thought...
Based on this thought I have said that Indian skies have shown an improving trend over the past 20 years and I am sure do not rate at the bottom or even very near it for aviation safety.
Part of growing pains that hopefully get addressed.