IndiGo with more fake pilots
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There is a difference between fake pilots and inexperienced first officers. It is part of our job as captains to mentor the next generation, like we were taught by our peers
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Tee, it comes back to training and the standards (of which Indian Airlines have none) cadet pilots work fantastic in BA, LH etc...
Real airlines, with real aviation authorites keeping things in check.... Don't confuse cadet pilots with the mess that the Indian system churns out under the same name....
Would a BA or LH cadet be ok if the Captain snuffed it? YES, would I put my family on an aircraft with a BA or LH cadet? YES.
PT6A
Real airlines, with real aviation authorites keeping things in check.... Don't confuse cadet pilots with the mess that the Indian system churns out under the same name....
Would a BA or LH cadet be ok if the Captain snuffed it? YES, would I put my family on an aircraft with a BA or LH cadet? YES.
PT6A
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Tee... the system does work in Europe... in India... and in South East Asia too. EZjet and Ryanair in Europe and a number of Chinese carriers come to mind with lads and lasses accumulating 300 hours from pilot puppy mills round the world before commencing their frozen ATPL training.
During line training, the new pups are trained to use special procedures if the captain becomes incapacitated during flight. Autoland is used to get the jet on the ground. They are trained to divert to an airport that has a precision approach in the event the intended destination does not have one.
Now as the fake pilot issue in India, I would not be dissapointed to see India placed on the Category II watch list by other nations in the same manner as Barbardos was recently.
During line training, the new pups are trained to use special procedures if the captain becomes incapacitated during flight. Autoland is used to get the jet on the ground. They are trained to divert to an airport that has a precision approach in the event the intended destination does not have one.
Now as the fake pilot issue in India, I would not be dissapointed to see India placed on the Category II watch list by other nations in the same manner as Barbardos was recently.
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Times of India reports another case, a relative of a senior DGCA official:
'Special' exam gave DGCA honcho's daughter licence - The Times of India
'Special' exam gave DGCA honcho's daughter licence - The Times of India
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from akerosid's link:
ICAO really needs to get off its collective backside.
TOI scoured through the results of ten pilot licence exam regular sessions held between April 2006 and October 2008 and found that Rashmi, who appeared for five regular sessions, consistently failed in Air Navigation, Aircraft Technical and Aviation Meteorology.
The highest marks she ever scored in her regular exam attempts in Air Navigation was 58/100 (to pass, 70% is needed), in January 2007. This, despite it being one of the easiest Air Navigation papers ever to be set, with the highest score being 94/100. To clear the five CPL ground subjects, Rashmi had 17 regular attempts over a period of two years and cleared only two papers. The minimum marks to clear CPL subjects is 70/100. DGCA records show that Rashmi cleared these three subjects in special exams, in which, the pass percentages improve dramatically.
According to the DGCA's special exam policy, a candidate can appear for special exams in only one subject. During Rashmi's time, in 2007-08, two subjects were allowed. Also, there were numerous conditions. A special exam could be given only if the candidate could not afford to wait for the once-in-three-months regular exams.
That means Rashmi could not have appeared for three special exams without giving a fraudulent undertaking.
The highest marks she ever scored in her regular exam attempts in Air Navigation was 58/100 (to pass, 70% is needed), in January 2007. This, despite it being one of the easiest Air Navigation papers ever to be set, with the highest score being 94/100. To clear the five CPL ground subjects, Rashmi had 17 regular attempts over a period of two years and cleared only two papers. The minimum marks to clear CPL subjects is 70/100. DGCA records show that Rashmi cleared these three subjects in special exams, in which, the pass percentages improve dramatically.
According to the DGCA's special exam policy, a candidate can appear for special exams in only one subject. During Rashmi's time, in 2007-08, two subjects were allowed. Also, there were numerous conditions. A special exam could be given only if the candidate could not afford to wait for the once-in-three-months regular exams.
That means Rashmi could not have appeared for three special exams without giving a fraudulent undertaking.
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So we know that Dad and Daughter are the perps in the latest scandel. What action will be taken against both of them?
Will Indigo sack the lass? Probably not
. Will the old man do time? probably not. The rug that scandels are swept under must be pretty damn big
!
Will civil aviation authorities outside India take note or action? Probably not.
The wonderful world of politics.
Will Indigo sack the lass? Probably not
. Will the old man do time? probably not. The rug that scandels are swept under must be pretty damn big!Will civil aviation authorities outside India take note or action? Probably not
.The wonderful world of politics.
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Fake pilots: DGCA fast-tracks verification : North: India Today
... says it all, especially the last paragraph:
"Deputy director-general A.K. Sharan's daughter was on the rolls of IndiGo Airlines. Director (air transport) Lalit Gupta's daughter was handling revenue management for IndiGo. Chief flight operations inspector Capt. H.Y. Samant's daughter also worked for a private carrier. Director (air safety) R.S. Passi's daughter, Garima Passi, was flying for SpiceJet. Garima was caught recently for obtaining her licence through fraudlent means."
DGCA = "Director General of Corruption in Aviation",
...thanks to the eminent people - corrupt to the core - named in the above article.
... says it all, especially the last paragraph:
"Deputy director-general A.K. Sharan's daughter was on the rolls of IndiGo Airlines. Director (air transport) Lalit Gupta's daughter was handling revenue management for IndiGo. Chief flight operations inspector Capt. H.Y. Samant's daughter also worked for a private carrier. Director (air safety) R.S. Passi's daughter, Garima Passi, was flying for SpiceJet. Garima was caught recently for obtaining her licence through fraudlent means."
DGCA = "Director General of Corruption in Aviation",
...thanks to the eminent people - corrupt to the core - named in the above article.
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Hold your horses !
Without going deeply into pedagogy and didactic matters, I will attempt to keep this very black and white and simple. So please do not coment with 'open door' replies like: as a pilot you must be able to 'act under pressure', because this is not the issue and it has nothing to do with it.
A 'special exam' sort of program as such is not a bad thing at all, if it is utilised in a proper way by proper people.
For example: You will always have some candidates that very well 'know their stuff', but that same candidate would 'collapse' under the pressure of an exam. Every next exam this pressure would even get higher.
It is the task of an examiner to set an atmosphere in which a candidate feels at ease. Although this may be a very difficult task, it is as simple as that.
In regular exam exercises this may not always be possible and candidates may feel like 'sheep being led into the slaughterhouse' despite their perfect knowledge on the various subjects...
Again: 'Black and white' and simple... Not necessarily to do with corruption...
That this scheme or program is 'corruption sensitive' like any other scheme principally has nothing to do with this and other ‘stories’...
Kind regards, learner...
A 'special exam' sort of program as such is not a bad thing at all, if it is utilised in a proper way by proper people.
For example: You will always have some candidates that very well 'know their stuff', but that same candidate would 'collapse' under the pressure of an exam. Every next exam this pressure would even get higher.
It is the task of an examiner to set an atmosphere in which a candidate feels at ease. Although this may be a very difficult task, it is as simple as that.
In regular exam exercises this may not always be possible and candidates may feel like 'sheep being led into the slaughterhouse' despite their perfect knowledge on the various subjects...
Again: 'Black and white' and simple... Not necessarily to do with corruption...
That this scheme or program is 'corruption sensitive' like any other scheme principally has nothing to do with this and other ‘stories’...
Kind regards, learner...
Last edited by learner001; 26th Apr 2011 at 20:16. Reason: Changed: "Nothing to do with corruption..." into "Not necessarily to do with corruption..."
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learner001,
I just started to type a presented rebuttal to your position, but then it's realistically superfluous to do so when it can be summed up in one word.
Rubbish.
I just started to type a presented rebuttal to your position, but then it's realistically superfluous to do so when it can be summed up in one word.
Rubbish.
Again: 'Black and white' and simple... Nothing to do with corruption
smoke and mirrors.
OK so it's not corrupt just sucess if you can afford it.
A 'special exam' sort of program as such is not a bad thing at all, if it is utilised in a proper way by proper people.
For example: You will always have some candidates that very well 'know their stuff', but that same candidate would 'collapse' under the pressure of an exam. Every next exam this pressure would even get higher.
It is the task of an examiner to set an atmosphere in which a candidate feels at ease. Although this may be a very difficult task, it is as simple as that.
In regular exam exercises this may not always be possible and candidates may feel like 'sheep being led into the slaughterhouse' despite their perfect knowledge on the various subjects...
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Fortunately the aircraft will know that the pilot doesn't handle pressure well so it will make sure not to have any malfunctions/emergencies when those poor souls who can't handle the stress are driving
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learner001 I'm not a pilot but I have the same pedagogic etc. etc. understanding of SOME exams that you have ... unfortunately even I can see that in this particular 'exam' how you cope with pressure is one of the main questions, - with a very significant 'weighting'!! As SLF I don't want pilots who can 'pass' exams because they have so little pressure they almost feel as though they have nothing to lose so can stay relaxed... but have mental blocks and 'freeze' as soon as the reality hits them that there are a hundred souls or more behind them all depending on them for their survival.
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Hold your horses !
Of course I know about the situation in India.
And yes: Of course a pilot should be able to perform under pressure.
But all that does not justify:
a. To condemn a candidate, if a specific well designed system or a program has been properly applied.
or
b. To condemn a well designed system or a program as such, for reason, that that system or program may have been misused.
May be I have put it up the extreme and too simplistic here (‘black and white’ and simple... Not necessarily to do with corruption), just to give it some initial relatively easy thoughts of consideration. However, I did put down some of very relevant and important factors:
@TeeVee
Although to some extent and to a specific stage up into the learning process, it may even be utilised in practical exams as well, I was referring in my post to preliminary theoretical mass exams in a rigid, class like non dynamic environment. As is the case here.
@lomapaseo
May be I had better written:
Kind regards, learner...
And yes: Of course a pilot should be able to perform under pressure.
But all that does not justify:
a. To condemn a candidate, if a specific well designed system or a program has been properly applied.
or
b. To condemn a well designed system or a program as such, for reason, that that system or program may have been misused.
May be I have put it up the extreme and too simplistic here (‘black and white’ and simple... Not necessarily to do with corruption), just to give it some initial relatively easy thoughts of consideration. However, I did put down some of very relevant and important factors:
“if it is utilised in a proper way, by proper people...”
@TeeVee
Although to some extent and to a specific stage up into the learning process, it may even be utilised in practical exams as well, I was referring in my post to preliminary theoretical mass exams in a rigid, class like non dynamic environment. As is the case here.
@lomapaseo
May be I had better written:
Again: 'Black and white' and simple... Not necessarily to do with corruption...
Kind regards, learner...
Last edited by learner001; 26th Apr 2011 at 20:18. Reason: typo
The Bumblebee
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This is the icing on the cake
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When is a pilot not a pilot?
Licence is one issue in India! The more pressing problem is that there are a small but significant number of commercial pilots who operate in India, legally licensed or not, who quite simply are not pilots – they cannot fly. There are First Officers and Captains who are sitting in the front of multi million pound jets and operate with their fingers crossed and a fly by number approach to the job – they have no skill. In reality there is no minimum acceptable standard in India. Some so called pilots have reached their position in an airline through contacts or by bribing people in one way or another. The senior people who ‘arranged’ the job cannot afford the incompetent pilot to be found out for obvious reasons. Not just Indian nationals but expat pilots/managers of dubious background hired through agencies that may offer payments to those airline executives using their agency service
If an honest TRE/TRI/Check Pilot brings the abysmal performance of some of these so called pilots to the attention of the senior managers, then this TRE/TRI/Check Pilot may not be rostered with the individual again. (They may not be rostered with anyone again?) The so called pilot may well do a few flights with the senior manager, who could well have arranged the job in the first place or be under immense pressure from ‘above’, and so called pilot is likely to appear on line a few weeks later.
TRE’s in India continually report having to take control on landing, below 100ft, during initial line training because some 200 hour trainee pilots are allowed in the RHS of passenger jets with insufficient training and/or lack of basic competence. It seems to be accepted in India that ‘basic’ flying training is often required during initial line training on jet transport aircraft, with passengers on board. It is often difficult to believe that these so called pilots have completed the required hours or tests for a CPL, let alone passed a type rating. The coming monsoon season will see many airlines in India operating flights with inexperienced Captains and low hour First officers. They may well be the very best, and mostly at least one pilot will be fully competent; but unfortunately the chances of having incompetent pilots paired together on the flight deck are increasing exponentially as some companies look to upgrade to Captain with minimum hours (1,500 total), continue to hire via dubious means whilst also often treating checking, including initial base training, as just another tick in box to be done and signed off at the behest of a powerful superior or as a returned favour. India is where inexperienced junior first officers often refer to themselves as ‘Captain’ and some of those promoted to Captain, with around 2,000hrs, are in reality no more than a F/O with a LHS check: This does not affect the arrogance of a few who are happy to remain unconcerned as to how little they know or how very limited their skills are.
With so many pilots out of work in India surely it is time to hire based on competence rather than connections or the ability to work the system. Competence means having the skills to fly an aircraft, not just pass technical examinations that mostly have little relevance. This is not exclusively an Indian problem, but in India the effects of a corrupt system will be the greatest: Although the Middle East will run a close second as those Indian pilots (and others) with dubious qualifications/skills try their hardest to get a position overseas where they hope that they will not be found out. My commiserations to the majority of Indian professional pilots who have to endure the continual assault on their integrity due to a number of their colleagues, managers and regulators who are corrupt, unlicensed or incompetent and possibly all three.
Finally, I doubt if Indigo are the worst offenders so maybe a new thread is required?
If an honest TRE/TRI/Check Pilot brings the abysmal performance of some of these so called pilots to the attention of the senior managers, then this TRE/TRI/Check Pilot may not be rostered with the individual again. (They may not be rostered with anyone again?) The so called pilot may well do a few flights with the senior manager, who could well have arranged the job in the first place or be under immense pressure from ‘above’, and so called pilot is likely to appear on line a few weeks later.
TRE’s in India continually report having to take control on landing, below 100ft, during initial line training because some 200 hour trainee pilots are allowed in the RHS of passenger jets with insufficient training and/or lack of basic competence. It seems to be accepted in India that ‘basic’ flying training is often required during initial line training on jet transport aircraft, with passengers on board. It is often difficult to believe that these so called pilots have completed the required hours or tests for a CPL, let alone passed a type rating. The coming monsoon season will see many airlines in India operating flights with inexperienced Captains and low hour First officers. They may well be the very best, and mostly at least one pilot will be fully competent; but unfortunately the chances of having incompetent pilots paired together on the flight deck are increasing exponentially as some companies look to upgrade to Captain with minimum hours (1,500 total), continue to hire via dubious means whilst also often treating checking, including initial base training, as just another tick in box to be done and signed off at the behest of a powerful superior or as a returned favour. India is where inexperienced junior first officers often refer to themselves as ‘Captain’ and some of those promoted to Captain, with around 2,000hrs, are in reality no more than a F/O with a LHS check: This does not affect the arrogance of a few who are happy to remain unconcerned as to how little they know or how very limited their skills are.
With so many pilots out of work in India surely it is time to hire based on competence rather than connections or the ability to work the system. Competence means having the skills to fly an aircraft, not just pass technical examinations that mostly have little relevance. This is not exclusively an Indian problem, but in India the effects of a corrupt system will be the greatest: Although the Middle East will run a close second as those Indian pilots (and others) with dubious qualifications/skills try their hardest to get a position overseas where they hope that they will not be found out. My commiserations to the majority of Indian professional pilots who have to endure the continual assault on their integrity due to a number of their colleagues, managers and regulators who are corrupt, unlicensed or incompetent and possibly all three.
Finally, I doubt if Indigo are the worst offenders so maybe a new thread is required?
