Alcohol Testing of Flight Crew

[linmar]

Originally Posted by Pa28Viking

Really? I think in most other countries you are considered to be 'flying' from when you report for work and start planning the flight. Long before you take your seat on the flight deck.

Yes, the Swedish law is pretty clear on that point. You're not flying under the influence nor driving under the influence unless you really are doing just that. The exact phrasing is; "A person who manouvers an aircraft..."

This is only applicaple for criminal law where you can be sentenced to fines or prison.

For holders of a license issued by the Swedish CAA it is of course another case . It is a lot easier for the CAA to suspend a holders license if the holder has been irresponsible using alcohol, not only in connection with duty but anytime. I am not aware of any such case regarding a flight crew license, but I would suspect the criteria would be more or less the same as for a drivers license, maybe even harder. Usually, in Sweden, if you are arrested for drunkeness in public 2-3 times in a short period of time (1-2 years) your drivers license will be suspended and you will be subject to rehabilitation actions in order to regain your license.

But, the Swedish CAA can of course only take action on holders of licenses issued by the same and therefore the new law makes it easier for the justice system to prevent 'drinking and flying' and also to apprehend offenders.

[Heliport]

It is clearly a bad week for United

And a good week for you.

[RoyHudd]

Be scientific.

Kindly explain what "poor judgement" the Captain exercised during the flight, before calling for his head. From the newspaper article, no facts are given as to the operation of the first flight, save that the Captain was PF.

Sensationalism has no place in a serious subject like aviation safety, and newspaper articles are full of it. They appear to be the basis for your opinions, which you know I disagree with.

[PilotsAnonymous]

And...why is it unacceptable for the Police to come into your cockpit and ask for a specimen of breath?, its just like a random roadside breath test leading upto Xmas, if u have nothing to hide, why is it a problem???

Apart from flight crew, nobody has any business being on the flight deck. Especially during flight preparation. Breathalizer tests are fine, BEFORE I enter the flight deck. Once I'm in the aircraft it is my aircraft, my crew, my responsibility.

[mustafagander]

Here we have a solution desperately seeking a problem.

How many times has alcohol been a significant factor in any aircraft accident or incident??

Facts only please.

[Black Pudding]

I now work in the Middle East and been on line since January. Been breathalysed 6 times in the crew room so far. We have a zero tollerance at the airline I am now at and I have no problems with that. If you have nothing to worry about, why the fuss.

[Mr.Bloggs]

A bit intrusive

Breathalysed every month on average, and you think that's ok? How about a rectal drug swab? If you don't do drugs, then nothing to worry about, right?

You need to see where this is all going, instead of meekly submitting to nonsense like frequent breath tests. Grow up, man.

[Hedge36]

Originally Posted by SM

And yes mustapha, the NTSB database is filled with cases were licence holders have abused substances and come to a sticky end, often with tragic consequences for innocent people.

I've yet to find one in the database where there would have been an opportunity to breathalyze the pilot (licensed or otherwise) prior to the flight. Care to cite one or a few?

[Flying Lawyer]

mustafagander

Here we have a solution desperately seeking a problem.

Well said.

I notice you invite Shell Management to provide facts to support his assertions.
Good luck. You might succeed but countless others, on a variety of topics in various PPRuNe forums, have failed.
Most of us count ourselves lucky if we can claim an expertise in one area. SM is one of those very fortunate people who is an expert on everything.

[PA28Viking]

Alcohol and drugs kill in traffic.

Pilots get court over the limit reporting for duty or at the controls all over the world on a regular basis.

Why do people insist that there most be burning aircraft and dead bodies lying around before the dots can be connected?

[Escape Path]

You need to see where this is all going, instead of meekly submitting to nonsense like frequent breath tests. Grow up, man.

Thing is, though, there have been pilots testing positive on breathalyser tests. Taking a precautionary point of view (i.e. the authority's point of view), what's stopping the rest of us from showing up to the airport in similar conditions?

Let's all get a bit sensible and stop being so rigid about this. It's no big deal.

[ExSp33db1rd]

SM is one of those very fortunate people who is an expert on everything.

'sbeen said before .... " X is an unknown quantity, a spurt is a drip under pressure"

QED

[BandAide]

I support random drug and alcohol testing. I think about 1% of pilots checking in for work should be tested. That's a high enough level to deter coming to work impaired, which is the objective.

There is no room for impaired pilots in the cockpit - period.

My biggest concerns are false readings and third party mischief such as giving a pilot a marijuana brownie, which has been done by a vindictive ex, who then reported the pilot.

[Not]

Shell management, if you are indeed management at Shell, please tell me that you respect your pilots as valuable assets in your safety culture. That you treat them accordingly. Provide them with productive and descent rosters conducive to both a professional and personal life and an above industry average salary cheque that reflects the constant demands you, if you are indeed management, put on your flight crews.

If you do indeed provide such terms then you might have at least an anorexic argument to support your views that random alcohol and drug testing is ok. Something along the lines of – IF I offer you the world I expect your world in return.

If a pilot does not appear to be under the influence then he is most likely not. Random testing will not stop those with a problem and only picks up the odd few who have a problem and have not been spotted by their colleagues. Company safety culture and openness is a far more effective tool. But as I have said, if you are an esteemed member of management you would understand such basic human factors points as these.

I am not expecting a response. As this person can’t even be bothered to correct mistakes in his own posts –

“It is clearly a bad week for United with a big fine for major failings in their dandom drug and alcohol screeining programme.”

Few glasses of wine before posting mate? Fatigue after flying an antisocial roster pattern? Or just another arrogant muppet with a chip on his shoulder that he is not as good an operator as those he purports to be part of the management structure for?

If you employ the bottom of the barrel then maybe you have a point. But surely you employ referenced and assessed professionals? Well then your company safety culture and those that dispatch and share the flight deck with an individual that may have a problem, should be enough to identify and HELP those that may present a risk. After all that is one of the reasons we have 2 crew ops and CRM n’est ce pas?

Or are you just a little troll?

Anybody flying today knows that fatigue is a far more ingrained, endemic and serious a problem affecting far more pilots than alcohol and drug taking.

Management, listen to your pilots and concentrate on the real issues.

This is nothing more than a witch hunt

[heavy.airbourne]

Where is the requirement for physicians to be drug tested before they cut open live human bodies, dispatchers planning flights thru typhoons, syrian generals cutting loose snipers and tanks upon freedom fighters. I as a pilot am getting fed up by aviation analphabets trying to regulate pilots while the whole world is spinning loose. This reminds me of old nannies controlling the angle of their china pets as the only means of having an influence upon their own lifes.
(I pray for the professional pilots rumor network to get rid of the non professional aviation nerds.)

[stepwilk]

(I pray for the professional pilots rumor network to get rid of the non professional aviation nerds.)

Problem is, how do we do it? Certificate number required? Easy to lie about that and ratings, etc. I would suggest that the best that can be done is to require posters--not lurkers--to fill out full and proper profiles. No listing "east of the sun and west of the moon" as a location, no listing "doing what I enjoy" as a profession.

I don't know if there's an algorithm that can verify that such is done or not...

[Desert185]

Avaiton has changed almost beyond recognition over the last couple of decades, and I think this is going to require a whole new 'mindset' from the next generation of flight crew.

Pointless and offensive security screenings, being monitored from the moment you show up for work, drugs and alcohol testing, and the fact that converstions on the flight deck are no longer private, will require us all adopt a very different work attitude.

Those of us whom remember the 'good ole' days, are going to have the hardest time with all this I suspect.

When I was an expat crewmember with Iran Air in the 70's, the purser would serve us champagne or a beer on the last leg's taxi in, along with two beers in a barf bag for the ride home (they drove us home in a crew car). Yes...times have changed.

I'm now retired from the airlines, but when the company gave us a random drug check, it was always postflight, to include an alcohol check. I always thought the check should be before the flight, rather than 8-12 hours later at block in. The company also stopped us from carrying a crew bottle years ago.

[RoyHudd]

Iran Air 1970's drinking.

Bit stupid to accept a beer/champagne post-flight if a possible test was about to be administered? Or maybe you just declined the offer in which case, why mention it?

Try to argue your case more coherently and avoid being classified alongside the aforementioned and rather feeble SM.

[Basil]

In the RAF, a glass of wine with lunch whilst refuelling in France was the norm.
In civil aviation, drinks on chox was the norm.
As many cigs as you like in flight was the norm.

Which of the foregoing, to my knowledge, caused an incident?




Ans: No 3. Check O2 mask OFF!!

[Snoop]

Eeerrrr Roy mate, if you know your aviation history, folklore and actual practice then you would know that this was common place back then. Alcohol and drug testing was not. Management and flight crew knew who had a problem and it was delt with accordingly and discretely.

I believe that discussing the changes in the practice of identifying and dealing with any issues with flight crew is the point of this thread.

Hull loses due to intoxication at the controls of any major western European carrier - No idea 'cos I haven't heard of any.

As far as I know (which isn't far) it was management who stopped the crew bus beers, for accountancy reasons. Once the chocks are in, engines shut down, passengers disembarked and hotel beckoning, nothing wrong with a post flight beer!