American Airlines jet goes off runway in Jackson Hole, Wyoming

[bubbers44]

Remember when the call takeoff power was replaced with max power after the go around accident when the captain called for takeoff power and the FE did take it off? I agree for speed brakes, stowed and extended, rather than up and down would make it crystal clear for everybody.

[viking767]

There's a slight detent that can be felt when the handle is first moved aft. That is the 'armed' detent and a light is activated that indicates the speedbrakes are 'armed'.



Where is that light?

[Echo_Kilo]

@Bubbers

Compare the video to this picture....Pretty much the same point of view. To ease it, use the vortex gen as a reference.

Photos: Boeing 757-223 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net

In my opinion definitely no spoiler deflection...



Cheers,

[sevenstrokeroll]

yes bubbers 44...

I remember when one captain just said: Fifteen

I looked at HER and said, what do you mean, FIFTEEN.

she lectured me on situational awareness and that FIFTEEN could only mean flaps FIFTEEN during an approach.

I then told her that FIFTEEN could also mean she was adding FIFTEEN Knots to her Vref

Or that we were crabbing FIFTEEN degrees for wind

and that if SHE wanted flaps fifteen, she could say: FLAPS FIFTEEN or ONE FIVE or ONE FIFE

[bubbers44]

EK, thanks for that picture. I have been trying to find one from that angle and haven't been sucessful. It looks like this pic was taken a row or two behind the video shot. I couldn't see the vortex gen's well enough to count 5 1/2 in on the video but noticed that point was a few inches inboard of the second LED so replayed the video again and cannot be sure if the spoilers made the left side of the video or not. It looks like the edge of the video came within a foot of the outboard spoiler looking at it using your picture. If the spoilers weren't deployed it had nothing to do with the pilots at that point in the video as the reversers cause spoiler operation even if the spoilers are not armed on the 757. If you have a better video than post 174 please post it.

The 757 has never let me down landing at critical airports. I trust it's systems and want to defend the airplane and crew until the NTSB comes out with their report.

[JammedStab]

Originally Posted by Airbubba

Years ago those country boys at Piedmont had a homemade short field procedure on the 737-200 where they would pull the throttles to idle and pull back on the T/R levers in the flare. As soon as the gear touched down and the squat switches closed, the buckets would open without delay for a quick stop. Later when the 737-300's came along, the T/R levers were released by ten (or was it five?) feet radar altitude causing a spectacular fall from grace when the short field 'technique' was used.

I would think that would create a significant increase in a thrust reverser ground strike depending on the touchdown attitude. Seem to remember no thrust reverser selection on the -200 until derotating.

[sevenstrokeroll]

maybe we should have retrorocket/jatos for planes...I recall the navy experiment with landing a C130Hercules on a CArrier. Pilot got a DFC...airplane had: ''look ma, no hook'' painted on the side ...also had reverse rockets

pretty cool

[galaxy flyer]

sevenstrokeroll

No "retro rockets" used.

C-130 Hercules Lands on U.S.S. Forrestal

They might have considered using RATO-assisted take-off, if ever they used the Herk on board the ship, but it was cancelled. The Super STOL Herk developed by Lockheed used rockets for arrival and departure. It was reported to be developed for a second rescue attempt in Tehran. Crashed at Dobbins AFB.

GF

[Airbubba]

Huh? Down is up, and up is down? 9,000+ hrs on the airplane and "up on the quadrant", along with your other explainations, confuses the heck out of me so I wonder how an ESL(english as a second language) person, or a non pilot, could understand your statements.

You're right, I guess it is more fore and aft but it confuses me too. I realize from your post that English may not be your first language, my apologies.

There's a slight detent that can be felt when the handle is first moved aft. That is the 'armed' detent and a light is activated that indicates the speedbrakes are 'armed'.

I certainly don't have 9000+ hours on the 75 but I'm not familiar with the light that indicates that the speedbrakes are armed, is it on the pedestal somewhere?

[misd-agin]

Viking767 - "where is that light?"



Touche. 737 has it. 757/767 doesn't.

Thanks for keeping the facts accurate.

[Airbubba]

I would think that would create a significant increase in a thrust reverser ground strike depending on the touchdown attitude. Seem to remember no thrust reverser selection on the -200 until derotating.

Yep, seems like you needed nose gear compression on the -200 to pop the reversers. The 737-300 and later uses RA or weight on wheels if RA is not available I believe.

You can use reverse on the 75 when the bogie tilt sensors are actuated, you don't have to wait for the nosewheel to come down.

[Checkerboard 13]

I couldn't see the vortex gen's well enough to count 5 1/2 in on the video but noticed that point was a few inches inboard of the second LED so replayed the video again and cannot be sure if the spoilers made the left side of the video or not.

The frames of the video ~ :55 - :57 show a view of the wing very similar to that in Echo Kilo's linked photo.
Viewing the video directly on youtube allows a full screen view.
With it paused in the :55 - :57 range, full-screen, on an HD monitor, I can clearly see enough of the wing to be able to see where deployed spoilers ought to be. (Counting the gaps between the slats gives a good reference between photo and video.)
I do not see any spoilers.

[sevenstrokeroll]

the -200 had the RA bit too.

thanks for the info on the ''retro rockets''. I saw a picture of it somewhere on line.

I still favor a ground contact timer...hit a button or triggered by the middle marker and a timer starts a countdown for ''ground features enabled"...disabled only on TOGA selection

[Airbubba]

the -200 had the RA bit too.

Izzat so?

[411A]

Short review...
Proper touchdown point, maybe.
Delayed reverse.
No spoilers (possibly, even likely).
Poor braking.
Into the snowbank.
And, to top it all off, AA ran off with the DFDR, before the NTSB had a look-see.

Yup, sounds like an AA screw-up to me.
No surprise.

Then..is it possible that the B757 is just too large an airplane for the available runway at JAC, considering the winter conditions?

[sevenstrokeroll]

200

ours did, the later ones that is...the earlier ones were called bubbajets by those in the know.

[protectthehornet]

I don't think the 757 is too big for jackson hole airport...I do think that follow through on automatic features (spoilers) wasn't as good as it should have been.

I also think that there is an inherent weakness in selection of reverse.

[Airbubba]

ours did, the later ones that is...the earlier ones were called bubbajets by those in the know.

Thanks, I have learned to never think I knew what was on a particular model of Boeing after flying 17 variants of the 727-200 at a now defunct Once Great Airline. There might indeed be 75's somewhere with a speedbrake Armed light because the customer spec'ed it for standardization with the 737. Didn't Southwest still get round dials for a while in the new 73's while everybody else was using glass displays?

A lot of the stuff we are discussing about WOW, tilt sensors, and RA has been removed from newer manuals, replaced by phrases such as "reverse thrust is available only when the aircraft is on the ground".

[BobM2]

I would think that would create a significant increase in a thrust reverser ground strike depending on the touchdown attitude. Seem to remember no thrust reverser selection on the -200 until derotating.

When 737-200 was introduced in 1968 it had short nacelles with clamshell reverser doors much like 727. With this arrangement, reverse was very ineffective as reversers were under trailing edge flaps & tended to take weight off wheels when operated. The hydraulic "target" type reversers with extended nacelles were retrofitted by 1970 along with a nosewheel squat switch which prevented reverser operation until nosewheel touchdown. This was the configuration for about 10 years until it was decided that ground strike was not a concern & the nosewheel switch was removed. After that, reverse was available simultaneous with main gear touchdown & I don't recall any problems with ground strikes.

[Cough]

Bob,

Agree, but it used to be a 737-200 limitation that pitch attitude had to be reducing prior to selecting reverse.