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TAAG 777 dropping parts from the air

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TAAG 777 dropping parts from the air

Old 9th Dec 2010, 10:36
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Just as flex and derate is interchanged willy nilly these days, as if it the same thing, so is autothrottle and autothrust.

It is not the same thing.
So whats the difference then?

Flex - reduces thrust a known amount

Derate - reduces thrust a known amount


Autothrottle - automatically changes the engine output based on certain limitations

Autothrust - automatically changes the engine output based on certain limitations
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Old 9th Dec 2010, 12:07
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So whats the difference then?
My understanding is that FLEX is a reduced thrust take-off power setting until the enroute accel/climb phase begins (typically 1000' or 1500' agl) after which continuous max CLB thrust is used.

A DERATE is similar except that the DERATED thrust (or a modification of it) is then used throughout the climb to cruise. ie DERATED (not full) power is used to reach cruise level.

I'm sure there's more than enough people on here to confirm or correct the above.

A4
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Old 9th Dec 2010, 14:10
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Autothrottle........... Throttles (Thrust Levers ) are driven by actuators resulting in power changes.

Autothrust ........... Engine Power changed but throttles remain in a fixed gate .
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Old 9th Dec 2010, 15:40
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So whats the difference then?
Flex is a reduced thrust over the max engine output.

Derate regards the "reduced" thrust as an engine with a lower thrust output than it really is

Pardon my English please
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Old 9th Dec 2010, 16:01
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Autothrust ........... Engine Power changed but throttles remain in a fixed gate .
Not on all types, it ain't...
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Old 9th Dec 2010, 16:25
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I have just found this thread so forgive me if I am out of date.

Let's have my "aircraft shedding bits and pieces" story first.

Several organisations spent millions of dollars some years ago designing hush kits for all of the old noisy jets including the 707.

Now I can't recall exactly which company did the best hush kit for the 707 but it was a very expensive modification. One of the first airlines to go for this option was a company called Buffalo Airways Inc.

I was flying DC-10s for one of George Batchelor's companies at the time and some of our 707 captains and F/Es jumped ship to join Buffalo.

And so it was that I taxiied in at Shannon one night and went past a Buffalo 707 with the cowlings missing on the No. 2 engine. After a sleep, we met one of our old F/Es in the bar. They had dropped the entire hushkit from the No.2 engine in the River Shannon and had had to make an embarrassing return.

Three days later, I was back in Shannon and my F/E friend was still there.

"Want to buy a hush kit?" said I.

"No sir, we are already distributors" said he.

We will now move on to the DC-10 auto throttle system.

I joined Laker Airways at the end of 1978 on the DC-10. We did our ground school and simulator with AA at DFW. We were given this great lecture on Day 1 that the DC-10 was an American airplane and we really had to learn that starboard was now right, port was now left, tailplanes were horizontal stabilisers and throttles were thrust levers.

I really didn't have any problems with this concept nor did I have problems with the very simple dual auto-land system on the DC-10 for I was well used to the TRIPLEX auto land system on the Belfast (and the Trident).

It was on my third simulator slot in the simulator that I finally got round to asking my instructor (who went back to the DC-2) why it was that our dual "thrust lever system" was being controlled by two levers entitled "ATS - Auto Throttle System"! Poor old Frank did not have an answer for that. Nor, do I suspect, did MDC.

I can assure you that the dual ATS system on the DC-10 worked very well. My only criticism was that the retardation rate on landing was sometimes not quite as fast as I might have liked which could result in a bit of a "float".
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Old 9th Dec 2010, 18:31
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In my airline, on my fleet, we use a derate and then usually a derated climb thrust too. There is nothing to stop us using a derate and full climb thrust though, or a full power take off (no derate or flex) and then derated climb power. Other fleets use flex and then reduced climb thrust as far as I know - so the same thing really.

I think this might be manufacturer naming conventions and nothing else. Certainly Boeing use Autothrottle and Airbus Autothrust in thier own documents, but that doesn't nescessarily have anything to do with lever movement.

Certain other things are named differently between the manufacturers with no discernible difference in function.
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Old 9th Dec 2010, 18:44
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not only TAAG

Door panel 'fell from plane'


By Chloe Turgis

An engine door panel fell off an aircraft during take-off and damaged a wing, a report has stated.


The Flybe-operated passenger plane landed safely and no one on board was injured.

The captain of the Newcastle-bound flight hadn't noticed any problems prior to departure at Southampton airport on 22 April this year.

He had checked the plane including the engine panels, according to the report from the Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB).

"The flight crew were not aware of anything unusual. The aircraft appeared to behave normally", the report said.

The pilot of another plane parked nearby witnessed the incident. He saw a right-hand access door detach itself from the Flybe Dash 8 aircraft and damage the leading edge of one of its wings as it was taking off.

He managed to pass on the information to the on-board crew via air traffic control (ATC).

The captain of the damaged plane then decided to land back in Southampton.
 
Old 17th Dec 2010, 11:15
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And there I thought this thread was about Taag dropping parts from the air..... Sad bunch of individuals you lot!
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Old 19th Dec 2010, 04:19
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Re the QF B747 at Don Muang,

That airplane was certainly in TG maintenance for a long while at Don Muang.

Was there not an issue of a relative of one of the FD crew being on the FD at the time of the overrun?.

Last edited by Thaihawk; 19th Dec 2010 at 04:21. Reason: Clarify reply
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Old 19th Dec 2010, 22:13
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I am pretty sure that we should forbid ALL "old" aircraft in that case. Unfortunately I canīt see the difference between a Tu-154 and a Boeing 727 made in the same year when it comes to the risk for accidents.

If we are starting to shout about forbidding the Tu-154 we should apply the same standard of all western aircraft of the same age.

In general itīs inappropriate to judge an aircraft based on the country of manufacture.

Aircraft should be judged on their technical condition - restrictions should not be based on theories about some kind of "manufacturing country related quality". If we begin to forbid the Tu-154 all other aircraft of the same age should be forbidden as well.

I have failed to see that some countries are making "worse" aircraft because of the country - i.e that "russian" aircraft are bad while "western" aircraft are good. Or that "western" aircraft is perfectly safe while "russian" products are "dangerous".
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Old 25th Dec 2010, 17:03
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Another one...

Another TAAG Triple7 (D2-TEE) involved in an incident at LAD on Dec 23rd 2010
-engine shutdown in flight.

Incident: TAAG B772 at Luanda on Dec 23rd 2010, engine shut down in flight
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Old 25th Dec 2010, 19:19
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Wow a 2 to one passenger crew ratio. excellent service I bet
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Old 3rd Jan 2011, 00:00
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Here is a video of the aircraft (D2-TEF) in TAP's maintenance hangar in LIS. Both of the engines are removed and there is physical damage to the inboard aileron and fuselage.

YouTube - Filme

There has been some talk about TAAG continuously operating their 777s in TOGA configuration for takeoff, which has apparently damaged the engines. Does anyone know if there is any truth to this, or even if such practices would damage the engines?

Meanwhile, their 777 fleet remains grounded.
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Old 11th Jan 2011, 06:21
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You tube+ Thrust

Unfortunatly the movie is removed now from You Tube.....

As I recall the T/O power is certified for 5 min use only, if you pay more $$ to Boeing you get a 10 min Rating.

At NADP I you need T/O Thrust to 1.500 ft agl, at NADP II you need it to 1.000 ft agl/flap reduction, after that you set climb power and, it depends on the software version, it stayīs there until TOC. During Cruise the mode stays and the thrust is reduced to what you need.....

Fly safe and land happy

NG
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Old 11th Jan 2011, 13:25
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Preliminary Report

Here you find the preliminary report of this incident:

http://www.gpiaa.gov.pt/tempfiles/20...11537moptc.pdf

LC
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Old 11th Jan 2011, 15:36
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Exceeding TO time limit (5 or 10 min.) should not cause a problem if only used occasionally. However - frequent ops in this mode should be considered abusive and would likely void the operator's warranty from the mfgr.
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Old 11th Jan 2011, 18:21
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Typical chicken and egg investigative challenge

What started the chain?

The LPT inlet vanes vs the HPT inlet vanes give some clues.

Uniform burning typically confirms good combustor fuel spray.

Burning behind the HPT typically points to good HPC performance and bad LPC performance.

Considering that there is no damage forward of the turbines, one might then concentrate on the LPT problems before any inlet vane burning took place.

GE will sort this out so watch for an updated SB
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Old 11th Jan 2011, 21:43
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Originally Posted by barit1
Exceeding TO time limit (5 or 10 min.) should not cause a problem if only used occasionally.
The use of TO thrust in normal operation is limited to 5 minutes for all civil turbine engines. If certified for the engine type and the installation in the airplane, the limit is extended to 10 minutes after failure of one engine. My understanding is that these limits are formal operating limitations, similar to red-line rpm's and TGT/EGT. Therefore intentional exceedance is not allowed and may be sanctioned. Unintended exceedance must be reported. Using TO thrust not longer than necessary will benefit overhaul costs of the hot section.

regards,
HN39

Last edited by HazelNuts39; 12th Jan 2011 at 09:29.
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Old 12th Jan 2011, 02:36
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My understanding is that FLEX is a reduced thrust take-off power setting until the enroute accel/climb phase begins (typically 1000' or 1500' agl) after which continuous max CLB thrust is used.
Having flown both Boeing and Airbus, I sure can't see much difference between FLEX, derate, autothrust, and autothrottle.

FLEX operation is more or less identical to a temperature based derate in 767/747.

Fixed derate would appear to be identical.

Autothrottle and autothrust seem to achieve exactly the same thing. So the difference would seem to mostly exist in the spelling.

A DERATE is similar except that the DERATED thrust (or a modification of it) is then used throughout the climb to cruise. ie DERATED (not full) power is used to reach cruise level.
You seem to be talking about fixed derates here (i.e. -10%). Take off power is treated differently to climb power. You can take off using FLEX (temp derate), fixed derate, or TOGA for that matter, but then transition to any of a range of climb power settings. In Boeing operation, your initial climb power setting would set the lower limit for the take off power...you will never get an addition of power at selection of CLB. The Airbus that I fly operates differently, and it's the norm for power to be added at the CLB point.
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