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Finnair A340 attempts takeoff from taxiway

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Finnair A340 attempts takeoff from taxiway

Old 5th Dec 2010, 13:13
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Last post on this subject (for me) and I don't want to go banging on about it but:

However many mitigating factors there are - bad design of airports, bad design of cockpits, non-ergonomic checklists and so on, it's the FUNDAMENTAL responsibility of the flightcrew - the skipper in particular, to ensure the safe conduct of the flight - taking off on the correct runway, in this particular case.

Or is that just me being 'perfect' again - slag me all you want - but the above is TRUE, absolute and unequivocal.

Last edited by Dengue_Dude; 5th Dec 2010 at 13:14. Reason: Yes there was one
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Old 5th Dec 2010, 15:01
  #102 (permalink)  
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Dengue Dude:

However many mitigating factors there are - bad design of airports, bad design of cockpits, non-ergonomic checklists and so on, it's the FUNDAMENTAL responsibility of the flightcrew - the skipper in particular, to ensure the safe conduct of the flight - taking off on the correct runway, in this particular case.

Or is that just me being 'perfect' again - slag me all you want - but the above is TRUE, absolute and unequivocal.
Correct, there are no excuses or mitigating factors for taking off on the wrong runway.
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Old 5th Dec 2010, 15:26
  #103 (permalink)  
Sir George Cayley
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Hot Spots have been introduced onto plates for points where there's an increased risk of a runway incursion. It should flag up to crews to focus and concentrate.

Maybe designating this area as a Hot Spot on the chart may help ensure crews sit up and take notice.

Btw does the Airbus system pick up Hot Spots?

Sir George Cayley
 
Old 5th Dec 2010, 15:33
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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Tiz easy "TAXI WAY DO NOT ENTER FOR T/O RWxxx" illuminated, it's not hard Murphy is a great leveler
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Old 5th Dec 2010, 20:27
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Liked the idea of painting taxiways red. But many airports have a lot of taxiways. How about painting the runways red, entering a runway raises the caution level, more so if it was red. The paint could also be a nonslip type to enhance grip.
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Old 5th Dec 2010, 22:47
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Sir George, the beauty of OANS is that the flight crew can add red crosses or green flags as markers for example to indicate taxiways which are closed or not suitable for the aircraft type and also hotspots.
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Old 6th Dec 2010, 08:30
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Had they just changed runway in use or was it quiet so they wern't in a queue?
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Old 13th Dec 2010, 08:01
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liverpool

had a russian (AFL) take off from the taxiway at liverpool in the early 1980s.
this was when the southern aerodrome was not visible from the tower which was located on the nothern airfiled.
situation different today, so hopefully, not likely to hapen.
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Old 24th Dec 2010, 05:48
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All lights were working and nothing was out of the ordinary, it says here in the prelim report:

http://www.cad.gov.hk/reports/Prelim...tigation_e.pdf

To prevent a similar event from recurring, ATC will from now on only give takeoff clearance after they have visually ascertained the aircraft has taxied completely cross taxiway A.
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Old 24th Dec 2010, 07:34
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Sorry, haven't had time to read all this thread but mistaking taxiways for runways????
Colour coded taxiway lights (at most airports), red stopbars, painted holding point markings, holding point designator signs, runway designator signs, wig-wags, painted runway designators on the taxiway surface, 'runway ahead' signs at many airports, runway markings different from taxiway markings. Goodness me chaps, how many more clues do you want??

Got to be an inexcusable error in my book!

H49
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Old 24th Dec 2010, 07:52
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Murphy's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 24th Dec 2010, 08:37
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better

how about a police radar gun aligned down each taxiway and if it picks up more than 40knots it flashes an alarm in the tower, or announces something on the ground/tower frequency?

cue ryanair jokes...

G
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Old 24th Dec 2010, 12:55
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Airbus SOP

Is it not SOP to, as you're taking the runway (or, you think you're taking the runway), to check runway alignment and heading on the ND?

Fly safe,

PantLoad
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Old 24th Dec 2010, 13:13
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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........ check runway alignment and heading on the ND?

From Interim Report.
The aircraft took the normal right turn at the end of Taxiway B towards Runway 07L but then took a premature right turn onto Taxiway A, a taxiway parallel to and in between the runway-in-use and Taxiway B.
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Old 24th Dec 2010, 17:05
  #115 (permalink)  
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do not FORGET

but remember...
RWY HDG is a must
but not enough
How about looking the colour of the RWY/TWY lights
any difference there ?
even if eyes are tired from some special liquids...there is no excuse
 
Old 24th Dec 2010, 23:35
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pantload
Is it not SOP to, as you're taking the runway (or, you think you're taking the runway), to check runway alignment and heading on the ND?

Fly safe,

PantLoad
Mmmm - no! It's not SOP at all. At least not in the FCOMS for 332/343/345. Nor is it in the company Ops Manual... EK's at least... Although we do check the ILS inbound course on a CAT 2/3 at 350' RA if that helps

Ah well
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Old 25th Dec 2010, 22:17
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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Rev 43....

Yes, it is the new Airbus SOP. Revision 43. Have a read.....

This came about, I believe, as a result of the RJ accident in LEX. (I think it was LEX...can't remember, for sure.)

As we take the runway, we're to check runway alignment and heading. With non-GPS, non-FMGC II, it'll be before you go to FLEX/TOGA to get the runway position update....but, the intent is to check, just the same.
(With GPS/FMGC II, there is no runway position update upon application of FLEX/TOGA....the aircraft position is valid already.)

Of course, runway lights, markings, etc., are important, as well. Everyone, here, has made a valid point.

What I, personally, find interesting is how, looking into the human brain, an entire crew could make this mistake. Again, this is not the first time something like this has happened. What causes a crew to make this mistake? Since this has happened many times before, I really don't see how we can simply write this off to the crew being a dumb-XXX. I'm not a PhD in Human Factors, but I think this is a case deserving some sort of study. Over the years, too many people have done this....the question is 'why?'


Fly safe,


PantLoad




Edited....Sorry, everyone, I just looked it up....It's not REV 43, but REV 42. My memory is bad. FCOM 3.03.11 P1 QFU/Threshold Confirm....just above the listing to stow the tray table prior to takeoff.

Last edited by PantLoad; 25th Dec 2010 at 22:30.
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Old 28th Dec 2010, 08:01
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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There is something going on with this runway/taxiway intersection. I haven't taken off from 07L at night for a long time so cannot comment first-hand, but I was discussing this with a very experienced mate based in HKG flying Airbuses. He departed 07L recently at night, looked down A as they taxiied to the rwy and observed to his copilot that he "could understand how mistakes could be made, it just looks WEIRD..". As I said he is very experienced and it's his home base. He cannot put his finger on what illusionary effects are in play. Imagine the problem being faced by visitors to HKG.

It is ALREADY designated as a Hot Spot, Sir George Cayley, which came about after the previous incident. That's an official acknowledgement that something insidious is going on here. Whether it's a combination of lead-in lights, relative brightness of lights, the expanse of concrete, low vis., signage, whatever: the human factors of the situation must be revisited.

In the meantime, be careful out there.
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