Finnair A340 attempts takeoff from taxiway
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Last post on this subject (for me) and I don't want to go banging on about it but:
However many mitigating factors there are - bad design of airports, bad design of cockpits, non-ergonomic checklists and so on, it's the FUNDAMENTAL responsibility of the flightcrew - the skipper in particular, to ensure the safe conduct of the flight - taking off on the correct runway, in this particular case.
Or is that just me being 'perfect' again - slag me all you want - but the above is TRUE, absolute and unequivocal.
However many mitigating factors there are - bad design of airports, bad design of cockpits, non-ergonomic checklists and so on, it's the FUNDAMENTAL responsibility of the flightcrew - the skipper in particular, to ensure the safe conduct of the flight - taking off on the correct runway, in this particular case.
Or is that just me being 'perfect' again - slag me all you want - but the above is TRUE, absolute and unequivocal.
Last edited by Dengue_Dude; 5th Dec 2010 at 12:14. Reason: Yes there was one
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Dengue Dude:
Correct, there are no excuses or mitigating factors for taking off on the wrong runway.
However many mitigating factors there are - bad design of airports, bad design of cockpits, non-ergonomic checklists and so on, it's the FUNDAMENTAL responsibility of the flightcrew - the skipper in particular, to ensure the safe conduct of the flight - taking off on the correct runway, in this particular case.
Or is that just me being 'perfect' again - slag me all you want - but the above is TRUE, absolute and unequivocal.
Or is that just me being 'perfect' again - slag me all you want - but the above is TRUE, absolute and unequivocal.
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Hot Spots have been introduced onto plates for points where there's an increased risk of a runway incursion. It should flag up to crews to focus and concentrate.
Maybe designating this area as a Hot Spot on the chart may help ensure crews sit up and take notice.
Btw does the Airbus system pick up Hot Spots?
Sir George Cayley
Maybe designating this area as a Hot Spot on the chart may help ensure crews sit up and take notice.
Btw does the Airbus system pick up Hot Spots?
Sir George Cayley
Murphy is a great leveler
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Liked the idea of painting taxiways red. But many airports have a lot of taxiways. How about painting the runways red, entering a runway raises the caution level, more so if it was red. The paint could also be a nonslip type to enhance grip.
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Sir George, the beauty of OANS is that the flight crew can add red crosses or green flags as markers for example to indicate taxiways which are closed or not suitable for the aircraft type and also hotspots.
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liverpool
had a russian (AFL) take off from the taxiway at liverpool in the early 1980s.
this was when the southern aerodrome was not visible from the tower which was located on the nothern airfiled.
situation different today, so hopefully, not likely to hapen.
this was when the southern aerodrome was not visible from the tower which was located on the nothern airfiled.
situation different today, so hopefully, not likely to hapen.
All lights were working and nothing was out of the ordinary, it says here in the prelim report:
http://www.cad.gov.hk/reports/Prelim...tigation_e.pdf
To prevent a similar event from recurring, ATC will from now on only give takeoff clearance after they have visually ascertained the aircraft has taxied completely cross taxiway A.
http://www.cad.gov.hk/reports/Prelim...tigation_e.pdf
To prevent a similar event from recurring, ATC will from now on only give takeoff clearance after they have visually ascertained the aircraft has taxied completely cross taxiway A.
Sorry, haven't had time to read all this thread but mistaking taxiways for runways????
Colour coded taxiway lights (at most airports), red stopbars, painted holding point markings, holding point designator signs, runway designator signs, wig-wags, painted runway designators on the taxiway surface, 'runway ahead' signs at many airports, runway markings different from taxiway markings. Goodness me chaps, how many more clues do you want??
Got to be an inexcusable error in my book!
H49
Colour coded taxiway lights (at most airports), red stopbars, painted holding point markings, holding point designator signs, runway designator signs, wig-wags, painted runway designators on the taxiway surface, 'runway ahead' signs at many airports, runway markings different from taxiway markings. Goodness me chaps, how many more clues do you want??
Got to be an inexcusable error in my book!
H49
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better
how about a police radar gun aligned down each taxiway and if it picks up more than 40knots it flashes an alarm in the tower, or announces something on the ground/tower frequency?
cue ryanair jokes...
G
cue ryanair jokes...
G
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........ check runway alignment and heading on the ND?
From Interim Report.
From Interim Report.
The aircraft took the normal right turn at the end of Taxiway B towards Runway 07L but then took a premature right turn onto Taxiway A, a taxiway parallel to and in between the runway-in-use and Taxiway B.
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Originally Posted by pantload
Is it not SOP to, as you're taking the runway (or, you think you're taking the runway), to check runway alignment and heading on the ND?
Fly safe,
PantLoad
Fly safe,
PantLoad
Ah well
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Rev 43....
Yes, it is the new Airbus SOP. Revision 43. Have a read.....
This came about, I believe, as a result of the RJ accident in LEX. (I think it was LEX...can't remember, for sure.)
As we take the runway, we're to check runway alignment and heading. With non-GPS, non-FMGC II, it'll be before you go to FLEX/TOGA to get the runway position update....but, the intent is to check, just the same.
(With GPS/FMGC II, there is no runway position update upon application of FLEX/TOGA....the aircraft position is valid already.)
Of course, runway lights, markings, etc., are important, as well. Everyone, here, has made a valid point.
What I, personally, find interesting is how, looking into the human brain, an entire crew could make this mistake. Again, this is not the first time something like this has happened. What causes a crew to make this mistake? Since this has happened many times before, I really don't see how we can simply write this off to the crew being a dumb-XXX. I'm not a PhD in Human Factors, but I think this is a case deserving some sort of study. Over the years, too many people have done this....the question is 'why?'
Fly safe,
PantLoad
Edited....Sorry, everyone, I just looked it up....It's not REV 43, but REV 42. My memory is bad. FCOM 3.03.11 P1 QFU/Threshold Confirm....just above the listing to stow the tray table prior to takeoff.
This came about, I believe, as a result of the RJ accident in LEX. (I think it was LEX...can't remember, for sure.)
As we take the runway, we're to check runway alignment and heading. With non-GPS, non-FMGC II, it'll be before you go to FLEX/TOGA to get the runway position update....but, the intent is to check, just the same.
(With GPS/FMGC II, there is no runway position update upon application of FLEX/TOGA....the aircraft position is valid already.)
Of course, runway lights, markings, etc., are important, as well. Everyone, here, has made a valid point.
What I, personally, find interesting is how, looking into the human brain, an entire crew could make this mistake. Again, this is not the first time something like this has happened. What causes a crew to make this mistake? Since this has happened many times before, I really don't see how we can simply write this off to the crew being a dumb-XXX. I'm not a PhD in Human Factors, but I think this is a case deserving some sort of study. Over the years, too many people have done this....the question is 'why?'
Fly safe,
PantLoad
Edited....Sorry, everyone, I just looked it up....It's not REV 43, but REV 42. My memory is bad. FCOM 3.03.11 P1 QFU/Threshold Confirm....just above the listing to stow the tray table prior to takeoff.
Last edited by PantLoad; 25th Dec 2010 at 21:30.
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There is something going on with this runway/taxiway intersection. I haven't taken off from 07L at night for a long time so cannot comment first-hand, but I was discussing this with a very experienced mate based in HKG flying Airbuses. He departed 07L recently at night, looked down A as they taxiied to the rwy and observed to his copilot that he "could understand how mistakes could be made, it just looks WEIRD..". As I said he is very experienced and it's his home base. He cannot put his finger on what illusionary effects are in play. Imagine the problem being faced by visitors to HKG.
It is ALREADY designated as a Hot Spot, Sir George Cayley, which came about after the previous incident. That's an official acknowledgement that something insidious is going on here. Whether it's a combination of lead-in lights, relative brightness of lights, the expanse of concrete, low vis., signage, whatever: the human factors of the situation must be revisited.
In the meantime, be careful out there.
It is ALREADY designated as a Hot Spot, Sir George Cayley, which came about after the previous incident. That's an official acknowledgement that something insidious is going on here. Whether it's a combination of lead-in lights, relative brightness of lights, the expanse of concrete, low vis., signage, whatever: the human factors of the situation must be revisited.
In the meantime, be careful out there.
