Finnair A340 attempts takeoff from taxiway
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The Singapore CAAS now, and has for some time, had a requirement for a positive runway identification by the pilots, verbalised, as the last item on the Before Take off Check List. Possibly a by product of the SQ TPE accident.
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Maybe due to today's highly sophisticated airports(ie follow the green lights) and A too large reliance on ATC(ie mode S required on ground),pilots tend to reduce taxi routing(expected or standard routes) briefing leading to a possible lack of 'where to go next' knowledge.(actual and future position knowledge).
Identifying the runway by all means available(gps runway symbol),taxiway leading to runway entry point(including hot spots),runway threshold marking and touchdown marks(rubber marks from landings)are all signs that may avoid such potentially catastrophic situations.
It is even more so strange that these pilots must have loads of time in the flight deck prior to departure time.
Low vis isnt the only time when one should be extra cautious.
Incidents/accidents always happen with a mix of undetected or wrongly managed events,in that case well done to ATC,they saved the day.
Im sure these pilots have learned tbeir lessons and all of us along with them to make flying even safer on ground and inflight.
Identifying the runway by all means available(gps runway symbol),taxiway leading to runway entry point(including hot spots),runway threshold marking and touchdown marks(rubber marks from landings)are all signs that may avoid such potentially catastrophic situations.
It is even more so strange that these pilots must have loads of time in the flight deck prior to departure time.
Low vis isnt the only time when one should be extra cautious.
Incidents/accidents always happen with a mix of undetected or wrongly managed events,in that case well done to ATC,they saved the day.
Im sure these pilots have learned tbeir lessons and all of us along with them to make flying even safer on ground and inflight.
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A technical solution is already available from Airbus called OANS, which gives the pilots realtime aircraft position on an airport map displayed on the ND.
It obviously costs money but airlines have to put their money where their mouth is when they harp on about safety. I have seen it work and it is a great tool and authorities should start mandating this technology considering the big number of similar incidents that seem to be on the increase.
Onboard Airport Navigation System (OANS) - Thales
It obviously costs money but airlines have to put their money where their mouth is when they harp on about safety. I have seen it work and it is a great tool and authorities should start mandating this technology considering the big number of similar incidents that seem to be on the increase.
Onboard Airport Navigation System (OANS) - Thales
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About the third pilot, was he on duty at the moment or just deadheading? If it was the cruise relief pilot, is he normally present on flight deck for t/o?
This looks like the type of blunder that sometimes happens in good weather (low vigilance) and in a non standard environment. While every case is unique I can't help comparing it to the Turkish (737?) crew that during approach kept yapping away with the colleague on the jump seat and thus failed to realize that the autothrottle was off and that speed was dropping fast (as did the aircraft).
This looks like the type of blunder that sometimes happens in good weather (low vigilance) and in a non standard environment. While every case is unique I can't help comparing it to the Turkish (737?) crew that during approach kept yapping away with the colleague on the jump seat and thus failed to realize that the autothrottle was off and that speed was dropping fast (as did the aircraft).
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The outfit I'm working for requires the ILS to be tuned in order to verify lined up on the correct runway for a departure when LVP in force. I must say I use it also when no LVP in force just to be sure to be lined up on the correct runway.
Complacency, too much reliance on the glass cockpit? Don't know, still too many possibilities for the holes in the cheese to line up.
Marsipulami.
Complacency, too much reliance on the glass cockpit? Don't know, still too many possibilities for the holes in the cheese to line up.
Marsipulami.
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If the incident happened on 07L then the massive paved area may have been confusing, but still its not marked in any way to indicate you are on a runway:
hkg airport - Google Maps
hkg airport - Google Maps
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Oliver2002,
Wrong end, mate. That's 25L. The giveaway is the alphanumeric in rather large letters on the runway. Try scrolling left.
If you have a look at the correct end - 07L you'll notice a few giveaways that say it is a runway and not a taxiway.
1. The runway is a different coloured tarmac to the taxiway. By the way this applies to both runways.
2. There are big white markings on the runway but not on the taxiway.
3. There are an awful lot of tyre marks on the runway versus none on a taxiway.
4. Don't know if the incident was day or night, but if night, then I think you'll find that the runway lights are significantly different to those on the taxiways.
I suggest that all who fly into VHHH have a look next time you're there. It's very straight forward.
Wrong end, mate. That's 25L. The giveaway is the alphanumeric in rather large letters on the runway. Try scrolling left.
If you have a look at the correct end - 07L you'll notice a few giveaways that say it is a runway and not a taxiway.
1. The runway is a different coloured tarmac to the taxiway. By the way this applies to both runways.
2. There are big white markings on the runway but not on the taxiway.
3. There are an awful lot of tyre marks on the runway versus none on a taxiway.
4. Don't know if the incident was day or night, but if night, then I think you'll find that the runway lights are significantly different to those on the taxiways.
I suggest that all who fly into VHHH have a look next time you're there. It's very straight forward.
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Just wondering whether, with today's available technology, it would be relatively simple to add a a new T/O config warning parameter, and address this issue.
Deviation sensed by GPS from the FMS's selected T/O runway centreline by more than a predetermined amount will trigger the horn, once T/O trust selected.
Deviation sensed by GPS from the FMS's selected T/O runway centreline by more than a predetermined amount will trigger the horn, once T/O trust selected.
Takeoff attempt was one hour after midnight local time, in excellent visibility (over 10 km, few clouds at 4500 feet) so yes, all the lights would have been on and visible from the cockpit.
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Jetset320...
Its exists / coming in, called RAAS (?) or similar. See Link
NoD
Just wondering whether, with today's available technology, it would be relatively simple to add a a new T/O config warning parameter, and address this issue
NoD
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Gatwick shows 2 Runways (26L/08R and 26R/08L) on Honeywells RAAS database...so no Taxiway t/o warning if on the Runway 26R/08L, but a call approaching and when on the runway...
RAAS Runway Search Results
RAAS Runway Search Results
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Back from my nap. Thanks, stepwilk, if you were referring to me back there.
Just wondering if the aircraft involved in this incident had any of this 'fancy' stuff you all are referring to; ie. GPS, RAAS, or whatever? We never had any of that stuff and ALWAYS managed to take off on a runway. All it required was to look out the front window to see where you were. If you weren't sure.....ASK someone. Plus, we carried airport diagrams along with all the approach plates. Impossible to get 'lost'.
Seems like the more 'gadgets' we put on these aircraft, the more problems we have.
Just wondering if the aircraft involved in this incident had any of this 'fancy' stuff you all are referring to; ie. GPS, RAAS, or whatever? We never had any of that stuff and ALWAYS managed to take off on a runway. All it required was to look out the front window to see where you were. If you weren't sure.....ASK someone. Plus, we carried airport diagrams along with all the approach plates. Impossible to get 'lost'.
Seems like the more 'gadgets' we put on these aircraft, the more problems we have.
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Maybe the PF was looking in for a moment calling fma's who knows.
I often do whilst taxiing to rw.
Still no excuse for mislaying runway imo
tut tut ....there but for the grace of god
I often do whilst taxiing to rw.
Still no excuse for mislaying runway imo
tut tut ....there but for the grace of god
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Shoot, I play golf sometimes in GPS equipped golf carts with the course layout in them. Purpose to speed play assisting golfers with info on distance to gren etc. On fairways carts not allowed on, the dang GPS warns you when it senses you are driving your cart off the cart path. I know, pilots too busy doing other stuff to pay attention to a GPS map, when the airport map is right under and in front of their nose. I know very well how difficult taxiway/runway identification is at many fields....it is what is it for the for the time being.
The OANS would be great, just have to get somebody to reliably monitor it.
The OANS would be great, just have to get somebody to reliably monitor it.