US Air Marshals flee Brazil following arrest saga
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Right, so bashing the USA is totally off limits but laying into Brazil with unpleasant stereotypical generalities is perfectly OK???
42... do you actually know what a Federal judge does in Brazil? He's not the equivalent of a Supreme Court judge, or a Crown Court judge, or whatever your national higher legal chamber is. His work will mostly involve constitutional law, not criminal law. Claiming that he is a member of the corrupt legal elite is a bit much, you don't even know the guy and yet he's automatically corrupt because he's Brazilian? Do US law enforcement officers never make mistakes?
I would recommend a read of the Tokyo Convention of 1963 about jurisdiction over crimes committed on aircraft.
cavortingcheetah, what interest would Brazil have in requesting extradition, even if it was covered by the treaty? Despite what many here seem to think, Brazil and the USA have a very good relationship on many levels and screwing that up over an allegedly drunk passenger is something of an over-reaction wouldn't you think? An insincere diplomatic complaint about sovereign rights followed by an equally insincere diplomatic apology would probably cover it.
FIGJAM_SEA, I took the opportunity to informally research your question last night over a beer, and of those asked 100% would call the police first. As we seem to have shared a similar nomadic lifestyle I think I would enjoy discussing international perceptions of justice with you, however that is for another place and time, not this thread, which has degenerated into a bash fest.
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42... do you actually know what a Federal judge does in Brazil? He's not the equivalent of a Supreme Court judge, or a Crown Court judge, or whatever your national higher legal chamber is. His work will mostly involve constitutional law, not criminal law. Claiming that he is a member of the corrupt legal elite is a bit much, you don't even know the guy and yet he's automatically corrupt because he's Brazilian? Do US law enforcement officers never make mistakes?
I would recommend a read of the Tokyo Convention of 1963 about jurisdiction over crimes committed on aircraft.
cavortingcheetah, what interest would Brazil have in requesting extradition, even if it was covered by the treaty? Despite what many here seem to think, Brazil and the USA have a very good relationship on many levels and screwing that up over an allegedly drunk passenger is something of an over-reaction wouldn't you think? An insincere diplomatic complaint about sovereign rights followed by an equally insincere diplomatic apology would probably cover it.
FIGJAM_SEA, I took the opportunity to informally research your question last night over a beer, and of those asked 100% would call the police first. As we seem to have shared a similar nomadic lifestyle I think I would enjoy discussing international perceptions of justice with you, however that is for another place and time, not this thread, which has degenerated into a bash fest.
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alemaobaiano, it's already been pointed out, but nobody's paying attention. The two American pilots that were held in Brazil is quite relevant to Air Marshall's decision to leave Brazil, I think...
2 U.S. Pilots Still Held in Brazil as Air Collision Inquiry Plods On - NYTimes.com
2 U.S. Pilots Still Held in Brazil as Air Collision Inquiry Plods On - NYTimes.com
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Changer, you're right, nobody is paying attention to anything. Are you seriously comparing an multi-agency investigation into an accident in which 154 people died to a police investigation into an in-flight dispute with minor injuries?
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How can you ignore it?
Here is a country that criminalizes aviation accidents for political reasons, and people should just ignore it?
On top of that, how is it that 2 LEO's get arrested for assault right away after landing in Brazil because they arrested a wife of a Brazilian judge?
Come on man.... wake up.
As for US bashing... I love it. We all know that everything American is grossly inferior to anything European. Pilots in particular... European pilots invented and reinvented flying and everything else. Orville and Wilbur are Europeans by heritage!
Despite all that, every 4th of July, I celebrate the successful stick removal out of our colonial asses.
Here is a country that criminalizes aviation accidents for political reasons, and people should just ignore it?
On top of that, how is it that 2 LEO's get arrested for assault right away after landing in Brazil because they arrested a wife of a Brazilian judge?
Come on man.... wake up.
As for US bashing... I love it. We all know that everything American is grossly inferior to anything European. Pilots in particular... European pilots invented and reinvented flying and everything else. Orville and Wilbur are Europeans by heritage!
Despite all that, every 4th of July, I celebrate the successful stick removal out of our colonial asses.
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I-FORD, I am not a lawyer, and if you are I bow to your greater knowledge, but from my reading of the text, had the Brazilian authorities themselves instituted the action against the FAMs you may well be correct. However the accusation was made by the alleged "victim", a procedure seemingly covered by Article 10, and therefore the FAMs were required to justify their actions. That wouldn't be difficult in this case as, despite the woman's claims, there would presumably be many more witnesses to support the FAMs report and the immunity implied by Article 10 would be maintained.
This was all a storm in a teacup until CNN ran their piece, and that's probably the way both countries would have preferred it to stay.
TTFN
This was all a storm in a teacup until CNN ran their piece, and that's probably the way both countries would have preferred it to stay.
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I think the two US security agents did the best thing fleeing home until the case will reach a clearer conclusion.
And I would suggest the same for any crewmember or security agent involved in similar cases, even in the old US of A, you never know how the local judge or law enforcer would interpret the various and complicated issues ....
It is much better to answer questions through a lawyer from the comfort of your hometown better than in a cell or court in a foreign and maybe hostile country.
And I would suggest the same for any crewmember or security agent involved in similar cases, even in the old US of A, you never know how the local judge or law enforcer would interpret the various and complicated issues ....
It is much better to answer questions through a lawyer from the comfort of your hometown better than in a cell or court in a foreign and maybe hostile country.
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It also appears to contravene international law, surely they should only have one passport.....
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[QUOTE][Here is a country that criminalizes aviation accidents for political reasons, and people should just ignore it?
/QUOTE]
The USA does the same.. EG valuejet. People do not ignore it they thirst for it.
Furthermore the marshalls and the pilots detained are two completely different scenarios.
The marshalls accused of abuse upon this woman, sure should be investigated by the country they land in.
Pilots who's potential neglect resulted in the death of 150 people just like valuejunk, damb right they will seek out someone to blame.
/QUOTE]
The USA does the same.. EG valuejet. People do not ignore it they thirst for it.
Furthermore the marshalls and the pilots detained are two completely different scenarios.
The marshalls accused of abuse upon this woman, sure should be investigated by the country they land in.
Pilots who's potential neglect resulted in the death of 150 people just like valuejunk, damb right they will seek out someone to blame.
The Convention, for the first time in the history of international aviation law, recognises certain powers and immunities of the aircraft commander who on international flights may restrain any person(s) he has reasonable cause to believe is committing or is about to commit an offence liable to interfere with the safety of persons or property on board or who is jeopardising good order and discipline.
Go and USA bash all you want, I'm fine with that. Your crime is the bashing of the very folks charged to protect others in a very precarious situation, I'm not fine with that.
There was nothing nefarious about the FAM's departure, SOP for foreign nation issues, multiple passports? How niave are you to think they don't have other means of identification? This is the real world we live in, not a paperpback novelet. This would have all been handled intraagency per previous events, however as mentioned, you find out about it because CNN found out about it AND the drunk judges wife blabbed. Nothing wrong with that though, right?
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Your crime is the bashing of the very folks charged to protect others in a very precarious situation, I'm not fine with that.
So lets see, to paraphrase and summarise previous posts:
We have a bloated government unit (with up to 10 airmarshalls per plane); which has so far accomplished little or nothing, trying to justify its existence by bashing defenceless old ladies, and who has been instructed that should they every have to justify their actions, they should flee instead.
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IF I were in their position ...
Justifyiably or not, I would hope that my company would expatriate me by fair means or foul, enter the correct process after the media have had their day, and see what happens. The fate of peoples careers, as are the processes in international aviation law SHOULD be transparent, rather than made on the fly.
ICAO sign up states are supposedly adhering to the rules .. if those rules have been trangressed fine .. if company (and therefore state based) SOP's have been transgressed by a rogue state within ICAO the understanding should be that the transgressor is dealt with within home rules.
But if that state becomes increasingly marginalised because of their insular mindset ( in this case two) there will be a problem.
In short .. remove crew, assess facts, face music if required.
ICAO sign up states are supposedly adhering to the rules .. if those rules have been trangressed fine .. if company (and therefore state based) SOP's have been transgressed by a rogue state within ICAO the understanding should be that the transgressor is dealt with within home rules.
But if that state becomes increasingly marginalised because of their insular mindset ( in this case two) there will be a problem.
In short .. remove crew, assess facts, face music if required.
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It also appears to contravene international law, surely they should only have one passport.....
Very interesting advice. So what you are saying is that should anyone ever be arrested abroad, then fleeing is the best alternative, regardless of whether or not you are guilty.
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Many countries have policies that allow their citizens to hold 2 passports if their employment requires regular international travel. Getting Visas can be an extended process even with Visa expediters like G2.
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JMAN, yes I would recommend fleeing from Brazil if you have the opportunity. You will not get any justice there. They did the right thing along with our American pilots who were cleared on a collision course with a 737 did. The drunk judges wife could have caused a diversion to an unfamiliar airport for the pilots in Brazil which would have been a risk to the passengers. She needs to take responsibility for her misconduct and not expect her husband to retaliate for her. Just glad I'm not married to her. I feel sorry for him.
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well ....
we are a community of pilots here .. perhaps it is we make rather than defer to policy ? If the marshalls transgressed SOP.. then they are off duty pending their fate , at home., end of .. as I would expect to be. Called to account when required .. fine .. but it must be said things look less than right here
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Lets try to make this as simple as possible:
1 - FAMS mission is to "... detect, deter, and defeat hostile acts targeting the United States..." , act agains a drunk women and the fact that the CC knew who they were is strategicaly stupid.
2 - After this disrupt in flight the correct procedure should be a Landing in the nearest airport and disembark the passenger, not handcuff her until the destination airport
3 - Leave this passenger handcuffed for nearly 5 hours can be understood as a crime of torture, authority abuse, illegal consternation, private gaol, accordingly to Brazilian laws.
4 - If the airplane was 5 hours out of the arrival it was probably already over Brazilian airspace, over the amazon jungle maybe.
1 - FAMS mission is to "... detect, deter, and defeat hostile acts targeting the United States..." , act agains a drunk women and the fact that the CC knew who they were is strategicaly stupid.
2 - After this disrupt in flight the correct procedure should be a Landing in the nearest airport and disembark the passenger, not handcuff her until the destination airport
3 - Leave this passenger handcuffed for nearly 5 hours can be understood as a crime of torture, authority abuse, illegal consternation, private gaol, accordingly to Brazilian laws.
4 - If the airplane was 5 hours out of the arrival it was probably already over Brazilian airspace, over the amazon jungle maybe.
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42... I did read it thanks, the immunity is not carte-blanche, as the following article makes clear.
Article 4: "A Contracting State which is not the State of registration may not
interfere with an aircraft in flight in order to exercise its criminal jurisdiction
over an offence committed on board except in the following cases:
(a) the offence has effect on the territory of such State;
(b) the offence has been committed by or against a national
or permanent resident of such State;[...]"
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Article 4: "A Contracting State which is not the State of registration may not
interfere with an aircraft in flight in order to exercise its criminal jurisdiction
over an offence committed on board except in the following cases:
(a) the offence has effect on the territory of such State;
(b) the offence has been committed by or against a national
or permanent resident of such State;[...]"
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Lets try to make this as simple as possible:
2 - After this disrupt in flight the correct procedure should be a Landing in the nearest airport and disembark the passenger, not handcuff her until the destination airport
3 - Leave this passenger handcuffed for nearly 5 hours can be understood as a crime of torture, authority abuse, illegal consternation, private gaol, accordingly to Brazilian laws.
4 - If the airplane was 5 hours out of the arrival it was probably already over Brazilian airspace, over the amazon jungle maybe.
2 - After this disrupt in flight the correct procedure should be a Landing in the nearest airport and disembark the passenger, not handcuff her until the destination airport
3 - Leave this passenger handcuffed for nearly 5 hours can be understood as a crime of torture, authority abuse, illegal consternation, private gaol, accordingly to Brazilian laws.
4 - If the airplane was 5 hours out of the arrival it was probably already over Brazilian airspace, over the amazon jungle maybe.
The inconsiderate A****le of a passenger got what she deserved. By the way, prisoners are routinely transferred for many hours on aircraft with handcuffs.
More like the corrupt, third world Brazilian system at work again. Just like in the midair collision case.