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TK crew did not /forgot to raise the gear ???

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TK crew did not /forgot to raise the gear ???

Old 12th Oct 2010, 17:11
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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When you have not put the gear up until 264 kts you have to leave it out until you slow down again below 260 kts.
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Old 12th Oct 2010, 18:32
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Red face

I believe that the max gear retraction speed on the 320 series is 220 kts. Actually this has happened at the airline I fly as contract pilot. A local crew forgot to raise the gear after take off in IST and only caught it on the after T/O checklist above transition altitude. They also forgot to slow down to raise it, causing red faces all around.
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Old 12th Oct 2010, 18:37
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220kts is correct, 260 is the speed where the gear hydraulics are pressurised..
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Old 13th Oct 2010, 10:31
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Smile Impossible

It's just impossible for the crew to simply "forget" the gear down and NOT sense any abnormalities in noise increase and abnormal flight behaviour. Unless of course they were both stoned on something????
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Old 13th Oct 2010, 17:33
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Originally Posted by SupaMach
220kts is correct, 260 is the speed where the gear hydraulics are pressurised..
No, 220 is not correct. At 264 kts the hydraulic pressure will be removed from the extension/retraction system.
I could quote the AMM, but you can check the FCOM 1.32.10 P3
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Old 13th Oct 2010, 18:14
  #26 (permalink)  
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possibly but it does happen. remember one crew on a MegaDeath-II who were reportedly complaining of the poor rate of climb of the aircraft at 320KIAS, passing 15,000', when they realised they could hardly hear each other also. Finally pulled gear up at same speed, recall the gear doors didn't like that at all.
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Old 13th Oct 2010, 18:34
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No, 220 is not correct. At 264 kts the hydraulic pressure will be removed from the extension/retraction system.
I could quote the AMM, but you can check the FCOM 1.32.10 P3
Sorry, but 220 is correct.

As I said, 260 is the speed for gear hyd pressurisation.
The green hydraulic system actuates all gear and doors. When the aircraft is flying faster than 260 kt, a safety valve automatically cuts off hydraulic supply to the landing gear system. Below 260 kt, the hydraulic supply remains cut off as long as the landing gear lever is up.
However, if you look at Fcom 3.1.20 (operational limitations)
Maximum speed at which the landing gear may be retracted (VLO retraction) 220 kt
So you should slow down to 220kts before retracting the gear.

I agree you could in theory retract below 260 as the system will have pressure though.
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Old 14th Oct 2010, 21:38
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I remember many moons ago returning from Spain on a Spantax DC8, may have been a Corronado but I seem to remember DC8 if they had any, the Captain was smoking a pipe I remember.I think he wanted to look like ex RAF. Anyway, the landing gear would not retract.He told us SLF with our buckets and spades and stuffed donkeys that he had decided to continue but we had to re-fuel.It did not seem any different from a normal flight, apart from the re-fueling.
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 10:31
  #29 (permalink)  
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I remember a Transair A300 taking off in MAN with the gear pins in (1997), they dumped 15t of fuel and returned to MAN.

Back to the original post, I spoke to a TK crew and they told me that the crew was on their 3rd leg that day. The gear has been left down to cool the brakes. Wx was bad and they had some sort of serious malfunction which required their immediate attention.

This, of course is all second hand info only (rumour) and I knew comments like the one from 'Forget' would rain down on me. But hey, they really seemed to have forgotten the gear while they where extremly busy sorting out the other problem(s).
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 12:45
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I remember a Transair A300 taking off in MAN with the gear pins in (1997), they dumped 15t of fuel and returned to MAN.
Yes, and I know just from where the FD crew came, and it was definitely not from the USA, Euroland, Canada, etc.
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Old 18th Oct 2010, 13:34
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zetec2:

Yes, at our place we do. There is also a rack in the FD where they are stowed so you always have a look at that, and one of the pre-start checklist items is:

gear pins............3 stowed

DW.
Now that would be a professional airline. With our mob the gear pins are .... ?? ..... anywhere, and useful items in the checklist????

Can gear pins be forgotten? In a word, yes.
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Old 18th Oct 2010, 13:51
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And don't forget rogue pins from the tug driver's pocket with no flags attatched

3 pins on the flight deck doesn't mean you're safe, as a colleague once found out.
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Old 18th Oct 2010, 15:28
  #33 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by MaxBlow
Wx was bad and they had some sort of serious malfunction which required their immediate attention.
- not high fuel consumption and apparent lack of climb performance I hope...................
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Old 19th Oct 2010, 16:32
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Herod.......

"""I've done gear down ferries, although I don't think they're approved (in UK) with passengers aboard. As for having the pins in, that's a no-no. What happens if an engine fails? Better to raise the gear and maybe not be able to lower it again than crash off the end of the runway because of lack of climb performance."""


I've signed many an aircraft off for a gear down ferry back to main base and we always put the pins in, not only that they are wire locked in and flag removed, that's what the manuals say so where the "no-no" bit comes from i'm not sure.

Thats on 145's 146's and Dash's BTW.
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Old 19th Oct 2010, 16:45
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Remember the RAF VC10 that flew Terry Waite from Beirut to Cyprus, or maybe even from Cyprus to UK? It flew with the right gear stuck down.
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Old 19th Oct 2010, 17:51
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And don't forget rogue pins from the tug driver's pocket with no flags attatched


That would most likely be the lock out pin for the nosewheel steering...not a major problem, you find out as soon as you wish to turn, unless you put a big size 10 on one of the brakes.
Failing that, the nose gear might swivel a tad upon retraction and remodel the nosegear doors a tad
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Old 19th Oct 2010, 18:05
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The no no ...

correct me if I am wrong ... but unless a performance group A aircraft can leave the second segment by having the gear stowed, it's no longer a performance A aircraft.. fine with all engines working, then comes the day one stops.. unless there is specific performance data for gear down eng out it doesn't sound quite right to be locking the pins into the gearlegs !!
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Old 19th Oct 2010, 20:48
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Contractor, please re-read my post and accept it for what it says.

It wasn't the steering by pass pin. It was the nose gear retract. It was from a tug driver who had moved the aircraft from one place to the departure stand before the flight crew boarded. It didn't have a flag. There were 3 pins on the flight deck. The nose leg would not retract. It was a VERY experienced colleague.

I thought my previous post was succint and unambiguous
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Old 19th Oct 2010, 20:58
  #39 (permalink)  
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Absolutely, Nubboy - the wise check the pin holes v e e r r r y y y carefully and do not rely on 'flags'.
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Old 20th Oct 2010, 11:25
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Nubboy,

The towcrew should not remove gearpins or install them, that's a techjob.

Only lockout pin should be installed/removed by towcrew. Most airports/airlines operate towcrews who do exactly that.
what would happen if the towcrew took it upon themselves to remove gearpins if the hydraulics are flat?
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