Airbus lands short at Palermo
I would put this in the same category as the AF overrun at YYZ. Landing in or near a thunderstorm, anything can happen.
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LICJ 242350Z 20020KT 9999 -DZ FEW018 BKN030 21/17 Q0999 RMK VIS MIN 9999
LICJ 242320Z 20020KT 7000 -RA FEW018 BKN030 21/18 Q0999
LICJ 242250Z 19021KT 7000 -RA FEW018 BKN030 21/18 Q1000 RMK VIS MIN 7000
LICJ 242220Z 19020KT 7000 -RA FEW018 BKN030 21/17 Q1000
LICJ 242150Z 19020KT 9999 FEW020 BKN060 21/17 Q1000 RMK VIS MIN 9999
LICJ 242120Z 19019KT 9999 FEW020 BKN060 22/17 Q1000
LICJ 242050Z 20015KT 9999 FEW020 BKN060 21/17 Q1000 RMK VIS MIN 9999
LICJ 242020Z 20013KT 9999 FEW020 BKN040 21/17 Q1001
LICJ 241950Z 20015KT 9999 FEW020 BKN030 21/18 Q1001 RMK VIS MIN 9999
LICJ 241920Z 19015KT 9999 SCT022 BKN030 21/18 Q1001
LICJ 241850Z 18010KT 4000 TSRA FEW018CB SCT020 BKN028 20/18 Q1001 RMK VIS MIN 4000
LICJ 241820Z 07006KT 4000 TSRA FEW018CB SCT022 BKN030 20/18 Q1000
LICJ 241750Z 06014KT 4000 TSRA FEW018CB SCT022 BKN030 20/18 Q1001 WS RWY 20 RMK VIS MIN 4000
LICJ 241720Z 14009KT 070V180 6000 TSRA FEW018CB SCT022 BKN030 21/16 Q1002
LICJ 241650Z 19017KT 4000 RA BR SCT022 BKN030 21/17 Q1002 WS RWY 20 RMK VIS MIN 4000
LICJ 241620Z 19020KT 6000 RA SCT022 BKN030 22/17 Q1002 RMK WS RWY 20
LICJ 241550Z 18020KT 9999 -RA FEW025 BKN070 23/16 Q1002 WS RWY 20 RMK VIS MIN 9999
LICJ 241520Z 18020KT 9999 FEW025 BKN070 25/14 Q1002 RMK WS RWY 20
LICJ 241420Z 18018KT 9999 -RA FEW025 BKN070 23/15 Q1003
LICJ 241350Z 19012KT 9999 FEW025 SCT070 25/14 Q1004 WS RWY20 RMK VIS MIN 9999
LICJ 241320Z 18011KT 9999 FEW025 SCT070 25/13 Q1005 RMK WS RWY20
LICJ 241250Z 17010KT 140V210 9999 FEW025 SCT070 25/13 Q1005 WS RWY20 RMK VIS MIN 9999
LICJ 241220Z 16013KT 9999 FEW025 SCT070 25/13 Q1006
LICJ 241150Z 19012KT 9999 FEW025 SCT070 25/14 Q1006 RMK VIS MIN 9999
LICJ 241120Z 21013KT 9999 FEW025 SCT070 24/16 Q1008
LICJ 241050Z 20009KT 9999 FEW025 SCT070 24/15 Q1008 RMK VIS MIN 9999
who is used to fly pmo knows that southerly wind means "sure windshear" due to the big mountain south of airport. In this case wind turned east, probably for the tunderstorm around the field, and that's why they used rwy 07 (metar 1650z still has pilot-report windshear on rwy 20...)
now, nobody can say exatly what happened, but my personal experience is really ambiguous; you have no report and experience shar on final, than some reports and no relevant speed variation on final...
on this airport you have 4 rwys, mountains, winds, sea breeze, obstacles,... nothing really important alone, but really odd whwn you mix it all
local experience helps a lot (those guys had it...) but sometimes make things more trikky (grammar correct?
) because rely on your previous background and that day can be different fm all previous
stikying strictly to the rules is always a good habit, but pmo, believe me, make decision making really interesting sometimes; quite uncommon to find a clear "no go" situation, except for wind coming fm south with rwy 20 closed...
so, we will wait for the ANSV report, may be in few months, but expecially for the gnd windshear detector system, that they were to deploy on site since 2007... they tried some expensive tecnical solution but without finding really helpfull it won't be the final device, but better that not having it!
LICJ 242320Z 20020KT 7000 -RA FEW018 BKN030 21/18 Q0999
LICJ 242250Z 19021KT 7000 -RA FEW018 BKN030 21/18 Q1000 RMK VIS MIN 7000
LICJ 242220Z 19020KT 7000 -RA FEW018 BKN030 21/17 Q1000
LICJ 242150Z 19020KT 9999 FEW020 BKN060 21/17 Q1000 RMK VIS MIN 9999
LICJ 242120Z 19019KT 9999 FEW020 BKN060 22/17 Q1000
LICJ 242050Z 20015KT 9999 FEW020 BKN060 21/17 Q1000 RMK VIS MIN 9999
LICJ 242020Z 20013KT 9999 FEW020 BKN040 21/17 Q1001
LICJ 241950Z 20015KT 9999 FEW020 BKN030 21/18 Q1001 RMK VIS MIN 9999
LICJ 241920Z 19015KT 9999 SCT022 BKN030 21/18 Q1001
LICJ 241850Z 18010KT 4000 TSRA FEW018CB SCT020 BKN028 20/18 Q1001 RMK VIS MIN 4000
LICJ 241820Z 07006KT 4000 TSRA FEW018CB SCT022 BKN030 20/18 Q1000
LICJ 241750Z 06014KT 4000 TSRA FEW018CB SCT022 BKN030 20/18 Q1001 WS RWY 20 RMK VIS MIN 4000
LICJ 241720Z 14009KT 070V180 6000 TSRA FEW018CB SCT022 BKN030 21/16 Q1002
LICJ 241650Z 19017KT 4000 RA BR SCT022 BKN030 21/17 Q1002 WS RWY 20 RMK VIS MIN 4000
LICJ 241620Z 19020KT 6000 RA SCT022 BKN030 22/17 Q1002 RMK WS RWY 20
LICJ 241550Z 18020KT 9999 -RA FEW025 BKN070 23/16 Q1002 WS RWY 20 RMK VIS MIN 9999
LICJ 241520Z 18020KT 9999 FEW025 BKN070 25/14 Q1002 RMK WS RWY 20
LICJ 241420Z 18018KT 9999 -RA FEW025 BKN070 23/15 Q1003
LICJ 241350Z 19012KT 9999 FEW025 SCT070 25/14 Q1004 WS RWY20 RMK VIS MIN 9999
LICJ 241320Z 18011KT 9999 FEW025 SCT070 25/13 Q1005 RMK WS RWY20
LICJ 241250Z 17010KT 140V210 9999 FEW025 SCT070 25/13 Q1005 WS RWY20 RMK VIS MIN 9999
LICJ 241220Z 16013KT 9999 FEW025 SCT070 25/13 Q1006
LICJ 241150Z 19012KT 9999 FEW025 SCT070 25/14 Q1006 RMK VIS MIN 9999
LICJ 241120Z 21013KT 9999 FEW025 SCT070 24/16 Q1008
LICJ 241050Z 20009KT 9999 FEW025 SCT070 24/15 Q1008 RMK VIS MIN 9999
who is used to fly pmo knows that southerly wind means "sure windshear" due to the big mountain south of airport. In this case wind turned east, probably for the tunderstorm around the field, and that's why they used rwy 07 (metar 1650z still has pilot-report windshear on rwy 20...)
now, nobody can say exatly what happened, but my personal experience is really ambiguous; you have no report and experience shar on final, than some reports and no relevant speed variation on final...
on this airport you have 4 rwys, mountains, winds, sea breeze, obstacles,... nothing really important alone, but really odd whwn you mix it all
local experience helps a lot (those guys had it...) but sometimes make things more trikky (grammar correct?
) because rely on your previous background and that day can be different fm all previousstikying strictly to the rules is always a good habit, but pmo, believe me, make decision making really interesting sometimes; quite uncommon to find a clear "no go" situation, except for wind coming fm south with rwy 20 closed...
so, we will wait for the ANSV report, may be in few months, but expecially for the gnd windshear detector system, that they were to deploy on site since 2007... they tried some expensive tecnical solution but without finding really helpfull it won't be the final device, but better that not having it!
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well, from what I understood, he was on the Cat II ISL approach to RWY 25, *not* on the VOR approach to RWY 07. The plane ended near the 07 threshold by skidding, but it was landing on 25. I have no clue to what approach he was using, of course, but 25 has an ILS approach!
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ILS or VOR?
The first reports in the Italian press did say he was on an instrument approach to 25 (presumably they jumped to the conclusion that he must have run off the far end). They also had the aircraft type as an A312, and the number of pax on board as 143. All wrong, of course, but initial reports nearly always are.
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The ILS approaches to runway 25 are suspended (there is no CAT 2 approach) but other navaids are serviceable. As there is no published VOR approach to 25 the ILS25 is replaced by VOR 07 plus circling, or visual, and notammed thus for at least a month.
The tire tracks on the runway 07 clearly indicate that the plane departed to the left of the runway just after the intersection with 02/20 with landing gear intact, then stopped rapidly when the main gear presumably collapsed in the soft ground.
The plane is now parked in the grass by the holding point for runway 25 as a reminder to all that this airport should be treated with respect.
The tire tracks on the runway 07 clearly indicate that the plane departed to the left of the runway just after the intersection with 02/20 with landing gear intact, then stopped rapidly when the main gear presumably collapsed in the soft ground.
The plane is now parked in the grass by the holding point for runway 25 as a reminder to all that this airport should be treated with respect.
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Yes, treat Palermo airport with respect! TSRA on airfield? Windshear suspected? Hold!!! Wait for the shower to leave the airport! Then only start the approach!
As said above: information on rwy overruns is good, but some will listen, some won' t...
As said above: information on rwy overruns is good, but some will listen, some won' t...
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TOGA had been selected.
Surely it should not be beyond the wit of man to provide virtually instant power for such situations. There is probably no completely satisfactory answer but what, for example, would be the tradeoffs be in optimising an engine design for rapid response.
The Ancient Geek, your question and hope only matches the problems of the air mass in which we fly with the problems of the air mass which enable flight (engine and airframe).
Some engines / aircraft do not have the capability to escape the conditions once encountered, particularly at low altitude
A better solution might be found in early detection and avoidance of such situations.
A limiting Case?
Some engines / aircraft do not have the capability to escape the conditions once encountered, particularly at low altitude
A better solution might be found in early detection and avoidance of such situations.
A limiting Case?
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"A better solution might be found in early detection and avoidance of such situations. " Yes, of course! You have WX radar to detect; and it is written in every SOPs to AVOID landing with CBs in the vicinity: risk of windshear! Hold! Wait a bit...
Fast response engine = fighter jet! It' s not the same fuel burn
Fast response engine = fighter jet! It' s not the same fuel burn
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i read: "
""
ok guys, be realistic; last month i came to gatwick... there was a thunderstorm in vicinity, some shear (not too strong, but it was..) and everybody was landing! dozens of flights!
now, of course "wait a bit" is the best course of action, but everyday experience say to the pilot when is "good" and when is not...
palermo is very special airport with the weather, as is genova and reggio calabria (this one more than the others); nothing requesting NASA experience, but can be demanding
in this case looks like (but looks... we wait the official report) that the AZA flight before them made a go-around; if it's true that was real signal for the crew that something was odd
but the final solution there can only be the ground windshear detector system, we are waiting it from years; otherwise most of the aircraft should simply respect the books strictly and divert every day... that's the real story, because all the time the southerly winds prevail it's a game to guess what will be the situation on final. the ATC winds are related to the field, but the final is just on the downwash of the mountain...
now, of course, is quite simple say "they should go-around"; of course they should, but how many times we (everybody) started an approach because "doesn't look so bad, we don't have clutter on the scope..."?
now guess what? they (ENAC-Judges) will blame the Captain, then they will allocate a lot of money again to study a "reliabe system brand new!" and in two years we will se a notam "gnd winshar system on test-not avaible"
sorry being so long, but i did already see this sad story...
it is written in every SOPs to AVOID landing with CBs in the vicinity: risk of windshear! Hold! Wait a bit...
ok guys, be realistic; last month i came to gatwick... there was a thunderstorm in vicinity, some shear (not too strong, but it was..) and everybody was landing! dozens of flights!
now, of course "wait a bit" is the best course of action, but everyday experience say to the pilot when is "good" and when is not...
palermo is very special airport with the weather, as is genova and reggio calabria (this one more than the others); nothing requesting NASA experience, but can be demanding
in this case looks like (but looks... we wait the official report) that the AZA flight before them made a go-around; if it's true that was real signal for the crew that something was odd
but the final solution there can only be the ground windshear detector system, we are waiting it from years; otherwise most of the aircraft should simply respect the books strictly and divert every day... that's the real story, because all the time the southerly winds prevail it's a game to guess what will be the situation on final. the ATC winds are related to the field, but the final is just on the downwash of the mountain...
now, of course, is quite simple say "they should go-around"; of course they should, but how many times we (everybody) started an approach because "doesn't look so bad, we don't have clutter on the scope..."?
now guess what? they (ENAC-Judges) will blame the Captain, then they will allocate a lot of money again to study a "reliabe system brand new!" and in two years we will se a notam "gnd winshar system on test-not avaible"
sorry being so long, but i did already see this sad story...
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2 days ago (9 june 2011), I've landed in Palermo and I saw the A320 still standing next to the runway. Completely painted white. Main gear collapsed, engines badly damaged and standing on its tail. I wanted to know more about the crash and to my surprise, it happenend on 24 september 2010.
Is it normal that takes so long to remove this aircraft? Or is it because it is Palermo...
Good for the public relations of the airport and nice for aircraft passengers afraid of flying...
Is it normal that takes so long to remove this aircraft? Or is it because it is Palermo...
Good for the public relations of the airport and nice for aircraft passengers afraid of flying...
Last edited by EXCIN; 11th Jun 2011 at 11:30.
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You know what? If a/c had JATO rockets, and an emergency system of activation (in windshear conditions at low altitude) - slow spool ups and low altitude windshears would be less of a worry. 