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BA Subsidiary - OpenSkies - Boeing 757 High Speed RTO -Wrong Flap Setting

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BA Subsidiary - OpenSkies - Boeing 757 High Speed RTO -Wrong Flap Setting

Old 21st Sep 2010, 21:30
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BA Subsidiary - OpenSkies - Boeing 757 High Speed RTO -Wrong Flap Setting

The B757 was operated by British Airways Open Sky subsidiery. Two management pilots, one a TRE, attempted take off with wrong flap setting - Only set Flap 1.
This is the company Statement:
Dear colleagues,
As many of you are already aware, one of our 757s experienced a high speed rejected takeoff on Monday 20
th September at Orly airport.
There is much speculation, rumor and inaccuracies circulating regarding this event. There have been general and personal comments on external social media websites made by OpenSkies employees. Much of these comments are grossly inaccurate and may do immeasurable damage to the reputation and commercial viability of the company. It is important that we communicate to you by way of this memo as many of the facts of the incident.
The Facts:
• The flight was dispatched normally.
• During the takeoff roll the crew observed an inconsistency between what was seen on one of their instruments and what they expected to see.
• The crew decided that the safe course of action was to discontinue the takeoff. The crew performed a high speed rejected takeoff and taxied clear of the runway.
• There was no emergency evacuation and there were no injuries to the passengers or crew.
• Emergency services were advised of the RTO by ATC and they responded as a
precautionary measure.
• The aircraft suffered minor damage to tires and wheels consistent with a high speed RTO.
• Following an aircraft change, the flight was dispatched uneventfully to Newark.
OpenSkies is carrying out an investigation into this incident in accordance with company procedures to see what if any, Human Factors were involved and for us to make recommendations to prevent recurrence.
Thank you very much for your attention,

-----------------------------------


What the memo doesnt say is that the crew advised the pax and cabin crew that they had a minor problem on take off leading to the abort. It was only when ATC advised the crew of heavy smoke from gear while they waited to make a second take off that six tires deflated (fuse plugs) and the fire service poured water over the heavily smoking wheels.

The pilots are suspended and the cabin crew put on another aircraft and operated to Newark seven hours later (?)

It is incredable that only last week a post is on Terms and Endearment about the problems in Open Skies.. Coincidence !!

NT II
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Old 22nd Sep 2010, 01:55
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No experience with B757 but isn't there a Takeoff Config Warning upon advancing thrust lever? It need not be a high speed abort, wouldn't it?

Rgds
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Old 22nd Sep 2010, 02:37
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I'm 99.99 percent sure that all transport planes have config warnings...but as long as SOME flap is down, even if not the RIGHT amount, no warning.

a reject is tough...wonder why they didn't put down more flap

AND WHY DIDN"T THEY CHECK as they took the runway. WE , on pprune, talked KILLER items to death...excuse the pun.
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Old 22nd Sep 2010, 03:02
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As long as the flaps are within limits the config warning won't go off. It doesn't account for an incorrect flap setting.
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Old 22nd Sep 2010, 03:10
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Noticed a difference between what they saw and what they expected to see....how quaint a description.
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Old 22nd Sep 2010, 03:31
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If indeed the flaps were selected at 1, there should have been a configuration warning. Flap 1 is not a takeoff flap setting in the 757.

Only if 5, 15, or 20 were selected and takeoff calculated with another setting, then there would be no warning, but as far as I know, Flap 1 is not on the 757.

If I recall, Flap 1 was only available for Takeoff on the 767-200.

Correct me if Iīm wrong...

SEQU
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Old 22nd Sep 2010, 05:40
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Flaps one is available as a take off setting for the 757-200.



It is not (with our Airline) permitted on the -300 version.



In which case I do not see why they would receive a configuration warning.
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Old 22nd Sep 2010, 06:59
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Looking at the "Facts" posted above, I see no mention of the word "Flaps."

We an speculate till the cows come home about what "Noticed a difference between what they saw and what they expected to see" means.

After an incident it is normal company policy to suspend the pilots. No assumption of guilt can be made from that suspension. To quote.

When an Accident or Incident is to be investigated the entire crew will be automatically
withdrawn from flying duty. This will ensure that all Crew Members are:

a. Rested from any operational pressures, particularly in the event
of any trauma, perceived or not, resulting from the accident.

b. Available for a medical examination, primarily for the benefit of
the Crew Member.

c. Able to complete the necessary reports and/or provide
statements regarding the accident or incident.

d. Available to assist the Investigation Teams.
The incident relates to an airline called "Open Skies" and not an airline called "British Airways."
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Old 22nd Sep 2010, 07:10
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seqa

Correct me if Iīm wrong...

You are duly corrected, you are wrong!!

Fueldump
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Old 22nd Sep 2010, 07:15
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smoke from gear while they waited to make a second take off that six tires deflated (fuse plugs)


Any rumours on abort speed cf V1?
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Old 22nd Sep 2010, 07:40
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I'm glad we didn't see Spanair rerun and that peace of MGT communication made me laugh.

I wonder if 757 has brake temperature indicators or at least BRAKES HOT warning.
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Old 22nd Sep 2010, 08:48
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Wasn't here a discussion lately about number of accidents/incidents with training/management pilots involved?
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Old 22nd Sep 2010, 09:15
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No brake temperature indicators on the 757-200's I flew as equipped from Boeing.
Also, the 757-200 for Take Off use flaps 5-15 or 20
Flap 1 take off only on 767-200's.

For rejectd takeoffs; in the Boeing normal procedures section is a page with graphs based on weight, brake application speed, pressure altitude and OAT. Using the chart guides one to recommended action following rejected TO.
Generally for heavy (loaded to cross an ocean) ops an abort at more than 80 knots is gonna lead to some brake cooling time at least......and if enough energy has been absorbed by the brakes, fire fighting intervention may be necessary.
Who knows what they saw on the flap indicator panel or what their planned flap setting versus what they had was. I do know that having one Check Airman on the flight deck is cause for concern.... having TWO or sometimes more cause some concerns every now and then to FO's along for the ride.
I was a line type 757-767 Check Airman or LCKA for 15 years.
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Old 22nd Sep 2010, 09:58
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Flap 1 is a misnomer. Only the Slats move at "Flap 1"
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Old 22nd Sep 2010, 10:21
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Not true, flaps do move:

(moving Flap lever to F1 detent)
• the slats extend to the midrange position
• the flaps extend to 1

Flaps 1, 5, 15, 20 are takeoff flap positions.

Finally, some 757-200s do have BTMS fitted.

Hold fire, who knows, we might all learn something from someone else's unfortunate mistake.
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Old 22nd Sep 2010, 12:15
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Assuming the report is even half correct, what the hell were they doing attempting to conduct a second takeoff straight away?
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Old 22nd Sep 2010, 13:50
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BWB.......The report on this thread was "while they waited"..... I didn't see any reference to a specific time frame. I can assume the crew was well aware of the need to comply to the advice of RTO procedures after an actual one. During my time on 757/767 I can recall many instances of especially 767-300 heavy RTO's that even initiated at 80knots (after which automatic RTO operates,if armed).... nearly every time a heavy 76-300 aborted with RTO armed, there was damage of some sort to the landing gear, thus putting the aircraft back in the barn B4 next flight.

I know...the airline in the thread operates only 757-200's.
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Old 22nd Sep 2010, 15:46
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I saw the aftermath of this, with the 757 on the apron and the fire service in attendance, one fireman with hose occasionally watering around the wheel aea. No smoke in sight, so presumably all over bar the shouting as the aircraft I was travelling in pulled on to stand.

Just a question from a curious pax, the main gear tyres appeared to be inflated (from about 50-60 metres away), if the plugs blow is it obvious?
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Old 22nd Sep 2010, 17:12
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Facciamo la Juve

Aero 11 - Erroneous Takeoff Reference Speeds
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Old 23rd Sep 2010, 00:45
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Flap 1 takeoffs are approved by Boeing. We use them at my company (TOM). Personally, I don't like this setting as it gives the least tail clearence on rotation.

GMS
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