Jet and Turkish Airlines 777 in 'near-miss' over London
In fact the Turkish jet failed to respond to three RA's. The Citation didn't have TCAS so it was up to the Turkish to do the avoiding. Yes it was the final error in a list, but it's a biggie.
They lost a jet because the autothrottle failed, now they're not responding to RA's. Not impressive.
LD
They lost a jet because the autothrottle failed, now they're not responding to RA's. Not impressive.
LD
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A lot of criticisms here (as usual 
) rather than saying "what can we learn" and "what can I now do to ensure this wouldn't happen to me"? For me:
We, and am sure other airlines, have strict rules about both pilots listening to, writing down, and checking the clearance. Some SOPs might get cut short, not this one by choice i.e. I doubt a P2 in my airlione would go and get the ATC Clnc when I was not aware. However, frequently one call to ATC and it is just given, unrequested, as here... So maybe one for ATCOs to think on?
Whilst technically the crew did not follow the procedures here, it was a tough call IMHO. Training Flight, P2 handling, already half configured for landing, turning onto base, busy comms both ATC and in cockpit, and then 3 RAs, 2 trying to get a descent at low level. Can you really say a less than 100% correct response is "poor"? I reckon, not pre-warned / not in the Sim, a good % of crews would not have got it much more right 
Particularly when it was a trainee as PF who maybe missed the initial RA, and the Capt had to take control to respond.
I remember doing a few Sims when I knew TCAS RAs were coming, and response from crews needing repeating. I don't remember any with 3 RAs in rapid succession, in the middle of RT calls and the intermediate approach.
Again, those who are firing criticism at the THY crew, maybe actually read the report
Lesson to me seems TCAS is a great system, but it is still one part only of avoiding mid-airs. It did not resolve this airmiss for various reasons, and I think if replicated in future, the response could not be expected to be much better. So the more traditional means of avoiding midairs - clearances, RoC etc. still need careful adherence 
The number of P2s I fly with who disregard the RoC rule, and when challenged, point at the TCAS display and say "but there's nobody out there" (which starts another topic)
NoD
) rather than saying "what can we learn" and "what can I now do to ensure this wouldn't happen to me"? For me:
The crew requested clearance to start engines from the Tower controller but were given both start and ATC clearances in the reply.
faced a rapidly changing TCAS encounter with two RAs generated within six seconds and three in less than 10 seconds
Particularly when it was a trainee as PF who maybe missed the initial RA, and the Capt had to take control to respond.I remember doing a few Sims when I knew TCAS RAs were coming, and response from crews needing repeating. I don't remember any with 3 RAs in rapid succession, in the middle of RT calls and the intermediate approach.
Again, those who are firing criticism at the THY crew, maybe actually read the report
His transmission and the subsequent reply from ATC were made at the same time as the first two RAs, which might have made the warnings more difficult to hear than otherwise
The number of P2s I fly with who disregard the RoC rule, and when challenged, point at the TCAS display and say "but there's nobody out there" (which starts another topic)NoD
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How does TCAS tackle the terrain?
If turkish was to follow the TCAS, started a steep descent, at the same time the other plane followed the ATC and descended back to 3000. As the turkish would already be in a descent would TCAS push him further down?
How for would this game continue and how far would a pilot follow TCAS descent with terrain?
What are the rules with ATC, non-TCAS aircraft and TCAS equipped aircraft that close to terrain?
If turkish was to follow the TCAS, started a steep descent, at the same time the other plane followed the ATC and descended back to 3000. As the turkish would already be in a descent would TCAS push him further down?
How for would this game continue and how far would a pilot follow TCAS descent with terrain?
What are the rules with ATC, non-TCAS aircraft and TCAS equipped aircraft that close to terrain?
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LayToLay
TCAS RAs in general are inhibited below ~1000R (the actual ruleset is quite complex), and become TAs.
Our QRH says to "respect GWPS warnings" during a TCAS RA, which to me seems sensible
That said, ~4000' over London in a widebody jet, low speed, half configured, I think it would be hard work to make oneself stuff the nose down to >2500'/m, almost certainly (but correctly) overspeeding the flaps in the process
which will now set off various loud bells to add to the TCAS / ATC / Crew Comms / maybe GPWS symphony
NoD
TCAS RAs in general are inhibited below ~1000R (the actual ruleset is quite complex), and become TAs.
Our QRH says to "respect GWPS warnings" during a TCAS RA, which to me seems sensible
That said, ~4000' over London in a widebody jet, low speed, half configured, I think it would be hard work to make oneself stuff the nose down to >2500'/m, almost certainly (but correctly) overspeeding the flaps in the process
which will now set off various loud bells to add to the TCAS / ATC / Crew Comms / maybe GPWS symphony NoD
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Hmmm, as a german business jet pilot that visits LCY regularly, I´ve got to say I find it hard NOT to query the clearance to 4000ft - when you go upstairs to pay your fees and/or use the crewlounge, there is plenty of "avoid levelbusts" / "remember the stepped clib" / etc posters on the walls. Also LCY JetCentre sends out good info on the subject to all users.
Sometimes the handover to Thames is quite late and so the "gate" of the initial call with cleared level might not work always. If we go outta there, it usually comes together with level off and first turn...
Someone asked why some of us climb so hard when in LCY...most likely because we have been told of numerous noise monitoring stations. Thats what I try to avoid, getting a prob with these things (and adhere to climb gradient requirements of course)
Sometimes the handover to Thames is quite late and so the "gate" of the initial call with cleared level might not work always. If we go outta there, it usually comes together with level off and first turn...
Someone asked why some of us climb so hard when in LCY...most likely because we have been told of numerous noise monitoring stations. Thats what I try to avoid, getting a prob with these things (and adhere to climb gradient requirements of course)
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interim report
Too mean to buy a long personal title
