Falsified CV's
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This extract from today's New York Times;
News reports indicated that slightly more than half of the pilots found to have given fake qualifications on their résumés worked for Henan Airlines’ fast-growing parent, Shenzhen Airlines. Officials at Shenzhen Airlines could not be reached for comment.
Peter Harbison, the chairman of the Center for Asia Pacific Aviation in Sydney, said that except for the Henan Airlines crash last month, China has had a strong reputation for aviation safety in recent years. “They certainly do actually, which is not what I would have said five or six years ago,” he said.
China’s top leaders have given aviation regulators a clear mandate to make safety their top priority and told the chief executives of the nation’s airlines that they would be held personally responsible for any crashes, Mr. Harbison said.
The tendency for Chinese carriers to err on the side of safety is sometimes visible at Hong Kong International Airport. During storms, the Chinese planes tend to be a little quicker to divert to other airports while the planes of international carriers continue to land.
News reports indicated that slightly more than half of the pilots found to have given fake qualifications on their résumés worked for Henan Airlines’ fast-growing parent, Shenzhen Airlines. Officials at Shenzhen Airlines could not be reached for comment.
Peter Harbison, the chairman of the Center for Asia Pacific Aviation in Sydney, said that except for the Henan Airlines crash last month, China has had a strong reputation for aviation safety in recent years. “They certainly do actually, which is not what I would have said five or six years ago,” he said.
China’s top leaders have given aviation regulators a clear mandate to make safety their top priority and told the chief executives of the nation’s airlines that they would be held personally responsible for any crashes, Mr. Harbison said.
The tendency for Chinese carriers to err on the side of safety is sometimes visible at Hong Kong International Airport. During storms, the Chinese planes tend to be a little quicker to divert to other airports while the planes of international carriers continue to land.
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That doesn't surprise me. With such a huge demand of pilots, and almost no infrastructure to rely on for producing them, that was almost foreseeable.
I've trained in the USA a couple of times since 2006, and in parallel to my flight schools helicopter training they had a program running in cooperation with Chinese airlines for fixed wing pilots. The Chinese would send groups in big numbers for initial flight training, from PPL to ATP, then they headed back to China. They were all trained in groups, no one on one training going on there. Even during flight instruction there would always be two more on the back to look over the shoulders.
It was almost impossible to small talk with any of them due to the poor English, in the air we couldn't understand them either. I was surprised that ATC could understand what they were yelling into the radio actually (I've been in and around China since the 90s and communicating with Chinese is definitely not new to me). At one point the school planned to actually do phase 1 in China and send an instructor over there, so that he could teach them English and some basics for a while, before they flew to the USA. I think this never happened.
In my opinion you cannot compare these pilots and their environment and standards with the western world. They are not part of a free labor market or whatever you would call that. They don't pay for their training, nor will they have to go and find a job on their own. They have been chosen at a young age out of school to be trained and then go and fly heavy aircraft. Their path is predetermined.
Maybe the idea is like venture capital, you invest in 100 companies in hope that one or two of them hit the jackpot. So maybe they train thousands of pilots in hope that a few hundred turn out good. Or maybe they are just using all of them anyway, I don't know ;-)
I wouldn't be surprised if the pilots themselves get these documents falsified for them, and they are just told to sign here and there. That's how many things in China work anyway. Why would that be different in aviation?
If I am not wrong there is also an old thread about a Chinese flight school somewhere here on pprune, where they tried to get FAA instructors to teach Chinese pilots in China. A lot of falsifying was already going on back then, and some instructors reported flying without licenses, with INOP equipment, etc... that was already years ago, not sure if this outlet still exists but I guess it does.
This could be the thread, but I could be wrong, as I remember something older and about a flight school near or in Beijing.
http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far...g-general.html
I've trained in the USA a couple of times since 2006, and in parallel to my flight schools helicopter training they had a program running in cooperation with Chinese airlines for fixed wing pilots. The Chinese would send groups in big numbers for initial flight training, from PPL to ATP, then they headed back to China. They were all trained in groups, no one on one training going on there. Even during flight instruction there would always be two more on the back to look over the shoulders.
It was almost impossible to small talk with any of them due to the poor English, in the air we couldn't understand them either. I was surprised that ATC could understand what they were yelling into the radio actually (I've been in and around China since the 90s and communicating with Chinese is definitely not new to me). At one point the school planned to actually do phase 1 in China and send an instructor over there, so that he could teach them English and some basics for a while, before they flew to the USA. I think this never happened.
In my opinion you cannot compare these pilots and their environment and standards with the western world. They are not part of a free labor market or whatever you would call that. They don't pay for their training, nor will they have to go and find a job on their own. They have been chosen at a young age out of school to be trained and then go and fly heavy aircraft. Their path is predetermined.
Maybe the idea is like venture capital, you invest in 100 companies in hope that one or two of them hit the jackpot. So maybe they train thousands of pilots in hope that a few hundred turn out good. Or maybe they are just using all of them anyway, I don't know ;-)
I wouldn't be surprised if the pilots themselves get these documents falsified for them, and they are just told to sign here and there. That's how many things in China work anyway. Why would that be different in aviation?
If I am not wrong there is also an old thread about a Chinese flight school somewhere here on pprune, where they tried to get FAA instructors to teach Chinese pilots in China. A lot of falsifying was already going on back then, and some instructors reported flying without licenses, with INOP equipment, etc... that was already years ago, not sure if this outlet still exists but I guess it does.
This could be the thread, but I could be wrong, as I remember something older and about a flight school near or in Beijing.
http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far...g-general.html
3.) The Chinese Concept of Training:In China, the standards of
Training are extremely low, in fact doing one's best is not particularly the
goal nor is learning the actual "true" objective.
On the contrary, passing of illegitimate tests, cheating, and simply logging
hours in a logbook to meet a TCO requirement are the normal everyday
occurrences that are prevalent.
You will be amazed at the levels of utter incompetence and corruption that
prevail throughout everyday life in these "schools."
Training are extremely low, in fact doing one's best is not particularly the
goal nor is learning the actual "true" objective.
On the contrary, passing of illegitimate tests, cheating, and simply logging
hours in a logbook to meet a TCO requirement are the normal everyday
occurrences that are prevalent.
You will be amazed at the levels of utter incompetence and corruption that
prevail throughout everyday life in these "schools."
Last edited by Runway101; 7th Sep 2010 at 04:41.
Interesting comment.
Why then with the Chinese simply batching up pilot training and having such poor English skills, corruption & falsification of records has Chinese aviation been pretty safe (certainly much improved in recent years) even though there has been such a massive growth in domestic aviation and an increase in domestic airlines?
Quite a paradox innit?
Why then with the Chinese simply batching up pilot training and having such poor English skills, corruption & falsification of records has Chinese aviation been pretty safe (certainly much improved in recent years) even though there has been such a massive growth in domestic aviation and an increase in domestic airlines?
Quite a paradox innit?
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Sorry I take back what I said earlier about the news in China reporting this issue.
It was also in some Chinese language national papers.
Many airline pilots have fake credentials
It was also in some Chinese language national papers.
Many airline pilots have fake credentials
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Load Toad
Poor English skills are not a problem for Chinese pilots communicating with ATC whilst flying inside mainland China, as they speak Putonghua (Mandarin) to each other.
However, two other problems arise. Non Chinese-speaking crews cannot understand them and so cannot know where they are, and at what level. The other problem is that Chinese pilots are very often flying modern Western aircraft, with the wording on the screens in English. Imagine flying an aircraft where the screens had Chinese pictograms (Barbed Wire Writing.)
Poor English skills are not a problem for Chinese pilots communicating with ATC whilst flying inside mainland China, as they speak Putonghua (Mandarin) to each other.
However, two other problems arise. Non Chinese-speaking crews cannot understand them and so cannot know where they are, and at what level. The other problem is that Chinese pilots are very often flying modern Western aircraft, with the wording on the screens in English. Imagine flying an aircraft where the screens had Chinese pictograms (Barbed Wire Writing.)
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I'm just curious as to what the mean by 'falsifying' exactly. Do they mean that some one applied for the job saying that they had 1000hrs on jets, when infact they only had 900hrs? Which, naughty it may be, but barring insurance minimums, I suspect won't keep you out of heaven.
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Not Just the Chinese
I think its a bit endemic. When I was being checked out for my first group aircraft the intructor said your fine, no problems and when I said i had to fly with another group member for a few hours as i was short of the 100 hours needed for the insurance, he just said "just pad your logbook out a little, no one will notice" needless to say I didnt.
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I once took a job as an instructor in one of those outfits in florida...they taught lots of foreign students.
I went there and poked around a bit...saw a trainer with its engine running and no one in the plane.
I asked about it...seems some of the students were happy to build time by letting the engine run, while parked , and going in to get coffee.
AS the chief pilot's name reminded me of a famous clown, I elected to leave the establishment and would not ever do business with them.
there is nutty stuff going on out there...so be careful
I went there and poked around a bit...saw a trainer with its engine running and no one in the plane.
I asked about it...seems some of the students were happy to build time by letting the engine run, while parked , and going in to get coffee.
AS the chief pilot's name reminded me of a famous clown, I elected to leave the establishment and would not ever do business with them.
there is nutty stuff going on out there...so be careful
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I am with Bruce 100%. The concern here is that the issue for the Chinese folk is to get licences/'experience'/ratings at any price. That simply is not acceptable and has to be changed. There is much wrong with the western world that I do not feel good about. Nonetheless, when it comes to this stuff we have a bit of a lead on the others and we should not be embarrassed to play to our strengths. Safety has many facets and the basic validity of licences is one aspect of that. Then you can start looking to following SOPs and embracing a CRM culture. We have had many heartbreaks along the way to get to where we are and it would be great if the Chinese could learn from our errors rather than re-invent the wheel.
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...and it would be great if the Chinese could learn from our errors rather than re-invent the wheel.
In my conversations with several China Eastern pilots (mostly First Officers) they seem rather well switched on about a good safety culture...and the low(er) accident rates confirm this trend.
Euroland (and other western pilots), that many times live in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones.
Just look at AirFrance, a very large Euroland aircarrier...and their hull loss rate.
Shocking, to say the least.
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Well and good this is exposed in China. Further east in the land of morning calm, it's well hidden to avoid embarassment to the airlines' flight ops administrations. Some of the fakers were caught out during the training and checking process but many manged to clear through the hoops. A certain B744 captain was a lowly f/o at Easy Jet not many years ago but in a short few years he is, lo and behold, king of the jumbo. Several were smart to con the Chinese mainland carriers with their dodgy hours, get their 744 ratings and then did a runner to KAL.......it's just so easy if you learn all the tricks ala DiCaprio!
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I am told that there are a few <Captains> from the western nations flying for the chinese freight carriers who have a lot of P51 time. These <captains> flew for failed western carriers so their hours/experience cannot be checked. Some were FOs self upgraded to captains.
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Crime Pays
Chinese pilots who faked resumes allowed to fly again
Some of the almost 200 Chinese pilots who were found to have falsified qualifications
on their resumes have returned to their jobs after they were ordered to undergo
training.
In April 2008, the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) discovered that
some pilots had lied about their flying qualifications, says the authority.
This prompted checks of pilots' resumes across all the airlines, says the CAAC.
It found a total of 192 pilots who had falsified their flying experience.
Some of the pilots had their licences revoked, while others were asked to go through
"remedial training", says the CAAC.
Those who eventually passed the CAAC's checks were allowed to return to the air,
it adds. The CAAC did not say how many pilots were allowed to resume flying.
The issue, which was not made public in 2008, surfaced recently in an aviation safety
conference in China in the aftermath of a deadly air crash last month.
Source: Air Transport Intelligence news
Back to Top
Some of the almost 200 Chinese pilots who were found to have falsified qualifications
on their resumes have returned to their jobs after they were ordered to undergo
training.
In April 2008, the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) discovered that
some pilots had lied about their flying qualifications, says the authority.
This prompted checks of pilots' resumes across all the airlines, says the CAAC.
It found a total of 192 pilots who had falsified their flying experience.
Some of the pilots had their licences revoked, while others were asked to go through
"remedial training", says the CAAC.
Those who eventually passed the CAAC's checks were allowed to return to the air,
it adds. The CAAC did not say how many pilots were allowed to resume flying.
The issue, which was not made public in 2008, surfaced recently in an aviation safety
conference in China in the aftermath of a deadly air crash last month.
Source: Air Transport Intelligence news
Back to Top
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This all starts with a chief pilot looking at resumes...and he sees the hours of some of these guys, their work experience, and there is no way it adds up...but he hires them anyway..
You wanted 200 hour marsh mellows in the right seat, CRM, pay to fly, on and on....well you got it...don't complain if the guy in the right seat is weak....it's the same system you guys bought into...live with it, you made your beds..
You wanted 200 hour marsh mellows in the right seat, CRM, pay to fly, on and on....well you got it...don't complain if the guy in the right seat is weak....it's the same system you guys bought into...live with it, you made your beds..
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Smoke and mirror
I wouldn't get too optimistic about China cleaning house. Rather, I think it is the typical Chinese officialdom answer to a disaster. Find a few bad apples outside of government and throw them out to the wolves, then claim the government was not responsible but has acted diligently to identify and resolve the issue.
This is a well established pattern in China that started with the 2008 Sichuan Province earthquake. The population started asking embarrassing questions about official corruption and demanding that government officials be held liable for their (in)action. Ever since, the government looks for a non-public scapegoat for every disaster to blame and divert attention away from other possible issues.
I'm not trying to absolve the pilots with fraudulent credentials at all, but let's not kid ourselves. Why did it take a crash for the CAAC to notice? Why, if it is so endemic at one carrier that, on the face of it, wasn't especially held in lower regards than others, has the probe not been extended to other carriers as well? Smoke and mirrors!
Because no matter how many genuinely qualified pilots are out there, the unqualified ones are always cheaper!
This is a well established pattern in China that started with the 2008 Sichuan Province earthquake. The population started asking embarrassing questions about official corruption and demanding that government officials be held liable for their (in)action. Ever since, the government looks for a non-public scapegoat for every disaster to blame and divert attention away from other possible issues.
I'm not trying to absolve the pilots with fraudulent credentials at all, but let's not kid ourselves. Why did it take a crash for the CAAC to notice? Why, if it is so endemic at one carrier that, on the face of it, wasn't especially held in lower regards than others, has the probe not been extended to other carriers as well? Smoke and mirrors!
As there seem to be a glut of qualified plots right now why would they act this way?
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This all starts with a chief pilot looking at resumes...and he sees the hours of some of these guys, their work experience, and there is no way it adds up...but he hires them anyway..
You wanted 200 hour marsh mellows in the right seat, CRM, pay to fly, on and on....well you got it...don't complain if the guy in the right seat is weak....it's the same system you guys bought into...live with it, you made your beds..
You wanted 200 hour marsh mellows in the right seat, CRM, pay to fly, on and on....well you got it...don't complain if the guy in the right seat is weak....it's the same system you guys bought into...live with it, you made your beds..
Truly the only way to know how good someone is, is to test them...I am not opposed to putting a 20,000 hr captain next to a 200 hr ab initio pilot...given them a solid ATP written exam then put them in the sim, and start throwing scenarios at them...may the best man win..
Who is it, exactly, to whom you refer when you say "You wanted 200 hour marsh mellows..."? Me? I certainly didn't want them. Anyone else here? Who is this "You?"
The fact is that a number of operators around the world, including many airlines, put very inexperienced pilots in seats. Ab Initio and cadet programs from well-recognized players such as Lufthansa and Cathay Pacific have such programs, and place young, extremely inexperienced pilots alongside very experienced pilots and put them to work.
Who are these "you guys" that bought into this "system," and exactly whose bed is it in which we are supposed to lie?
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Apparently all settled....now
@Airwise
Chinese pilots who had lied about their flying experience have been allowed to return to work after they took remedial action to make up their hours, according to the country's aviation watchdog.
@Airwise
Chinese pilots who had lied about their flying experience have been allowed to return to work after they took remedial action to make up their hours, according to the country's aviation watchdog.