Laser Nuisance

[rottenray]

Clown writes:

Can one of the pro-l@ser lobby please tell me exactly why the general public should need access to a >1mW device?

I don't consider myself "pro-laser," but I simply resent that you're so happy to limit what I can own.

Folks like you are re-designing the world for the lowest common denominator (look it up yourself) and as that continues, you will have to "outlaw" more and more things as people find ways to abuse them.


You should be ranting and working for better enforcement, not more restrictions on things a hobbyist can own.


Once in a while, I can hear planes pass overhead - I guess I should join the rest of the NIMBYs and get that damn airport closed, right?


?

[P-T]

Rotten Ray,

Typically American answer.

Surely you have to agree not everyone is as responsible as you or any other aviation enthusiast on PPRUNE may be.

Surely you can agree that having access to "dangerous" equipment can cause problems if you have less then average intelligence.

Your gun laws are a legacy of years gone past and as such you have a huge amount of gun crime. If you're a respectable human being and you have a legitimate reason for owning a l@ser then the licensing authorities will grant you access.

If the attitude of "what gives you the right to limit what I own" is ridiculous, next you'll be saying, "I'd like to have a couple of Nukes in my backyard, just because I can".

Get a grip, lasers pose a significant risk and are becoming more common.

I was over Germany at FL370 last week and RYR aircraft were reporting laser light at the same altitude. I saw the source but wasn't directly targeted. I too was a bit surprised at the ability to target at 6 miles away, people are clearly getting hold of pieces of kit that you don't find on key rings or white board pointers.

It is a problem, there needs to be a solution.

As for your pathetic justification or comparison about hearing aircraft above and closing an airfield. Is this going to kill you and hundreds of people sitting in the seats behind you? How would you like it if all of a sudden the pilots on a flight you were sitting on were suddenly incapacitated by a laser from the ground? would your laissez faire (look it up!) attitude sit so comfortably then?

And as for the lowest common denominator, well that is the safest way forward in my opinion. If you can prove your ability, responsibility and need to own equipment that can cause issues then why not stop the idiots getting hold of it?

[Ex Cargo Clown]

I do love the beautiful irony of a yank spouting nonsense about how people should have freedom to own whatever they wish to have, being in a country that attempts to deny foreign powers from owning nuclear weapons.

Nobody needs anything over a 1-5mW l@ser, unless for a professional reason.

If it is your hobby that is impacted for the sake of saving 200 innocent pax then tough luck, find a new, safer hobby.

[AnthonyGA]

Nobody needs anything over a 1-5mW l@ser, unless for a professional reason.

Nobody needs a pilot's license, unless for a professional reason. Be careful what you wish for.

The solution is not to restrict the sale of lasers, since they have many legitimate uses. The solution is to make the penalty for aiming lasers at aircraft so severe and so guaranteed that people will refrain from doing it. A six-month suspended sentence won't suffice. A two-year or five-year prison sentence without parole would work pretty well.

Licensing of lasers that are dangerously powerful also makes sense, as long as this is not used as an excuse to artificially restrict their availability.

The American philosophy in many ways is to allow everything, except that which is forbidden. The European philosophy is increasingly to forbid everything, except that which is allowed.

Anyway, make the penalties severe enough, and actively track down and prosecute the perpetrators, and the laser incidents will go away. There are lots of guns in the world, but people don't fire guns at cars on the highway because they know they will go to jail for a long time for doing so. If they also know that they will go to jail for a long time for aiming lasers at airplanes, they'll stop doing it.

Some people can be stopped just by educating them, but the stupid ones have to be put in fear of prison in order to get them to behave.

For what it's worth, I notice a lot of people doing stupid things with high-powered lasers, besides pointing them at airplanes. Even the ones who claim to know what they are doing obviously don't know what they are doing when you hear them describe some of their "harmless experiments."

And for those who care nothing about laws or the safety of others, do keep in mind that if you aim that powerful laser in the wrong direction, it will bounce off a specular surface and put a nice permanent burn mark on your retina, just as it will with anyone else.

[P-T]

Not sure your comment about "nobody needs a pilots licence, unless for professional reasons" is really a valid argument.

Gaining a PPL is in itself a demonstration of responsibility and skill. Buying a powerful laser from an internet is not.

As far as making the fine so heavy that people wont do it - do you have any idea how difficult it would be to catch someone firing a laser? Yes it has been done, but Christ how much manpower and resources would that take. Even that doesn't safeguard the pilots and passengers. I think people forget that we live in a world full of idiots.

Personally i have been targeted, its not pleasant but fortunately, neither I or my Pax have been affected by it. But I believe it is only a matter of time, as the frequency and strength of the laser attacks are clearly increasing.

[Farrell]

This problem as recently arrived at Muscat.

Unfortunately for pilots - there is a park that is situated about 2 to 1 mile final from the threshold of 08, positioned right on the extended centre-line, which can have hundreds of picnicking families in it of a weekend.

Green laser reports are on the increase. As is the activities of one spastic with an air-band transceiver who thinks its a great idea to repeat back some clearances and block the frequency.

One poor IL-76 jockey had his flightdeck lit up by, according to him, no less than four beams on take-off from 26 out over the park. They are always low initially - he did not get dinged in the eye but said it was bright enough to cause a distraction.

[crippen]

Market swoop on dangerous laser-gun toys

From a simple SLF. UK is trying.

Published Date: 03 September 2010
By Paul Jeeves
TOY guns fitted with potentially dangerous laser beams have been seized in an early morning raid on a market in North Yorkshire.
The Chinese-made toys, which have a price tag of Ģ6, have been deemed to be so dangerous that they have been banned from sale throughout Europe.

The laser fitted on the toys has been found to be nearly 20 times more powerful than permitted by toy safety regulations – yet the packaging states the guns are suitable for children from five years of age.

Following a tip-off from a member of the public, trading standards officers from North Yorkshire County Council went to the Sunday market in Catterick and swooped on a stall being run by a trader from Oldham.

A search revealed 10 illegal toy weapons, all of which were seized.

The trading standards officers have launched an investigation to establish the source of the imported guns, which were seized at the market last Sunday. The trader could face prosecution.

The county council's executive member for trading standards, Coun Clare Wood, said: "These are extremely dangerous so-called toys, which could easily have the most horrific consequences. They could, for example, easily damage a child's eyes."

Laboratory tests which were carried out in July this year led to a Europe-wide recall of the guns. The tests showed that the guns pose a risk of damaging a person's sight because they incorporate class 3B lasers.Market swoop on dangerous laser-gun toys - Yorkshire Post

[rotornut]

If 5 mW is powerful, what about these:

Laserglow Hercules 250mW Green Laser Pointer
547N008
$1572.00

Laserglow Hercules 275mW Green Laser Pointer
547N009
$2177.00

Laserglow Hercules 300mW Green Laser Pointer
547N010
$2177.00

Laserglow Hercules 325mW Green Laser Pointer
547N011
$2842.00

Laserglow Hercules 350mW Green Laser Pointer
547N012
$3383.00

Laserglow Hercules 375mW Green Laser Pointer
547N013
$3988.00

Laserglow Hercules 400mW Green Laser Pointer
547N014
$4593.00

Can someone tell me why anyone would want one of these for a legitimate purpose?

[Ex Cargo Clown]

I would love our resident l@ser loving nutcase to give us one legitimate reason for the general public to need 200>500 mW lasers.

If he can, I will give him a challenge, I will take 1 second of his 480mW device if he can take 1mS of the laser I have access to

[md80fanatic]

I'd highly recommend having these handy in a high threat green laser environment. Shame they cannot be mirrored as well, for added protection.

Green Laser Eye Protection

From that website also comes information on the next laser threat, thanks to inexpensive blue diodes hitting the market recently. Its advertised as being 4000% brighter than previous blue-violet beams. It retails for a scant $300 USD and puts out a whopping 1W of power. The best absorptive color for a blue beam would be orange (opposite blue on color wheel), so look for some decent orange lens in the future.

EDIT: Sorry, SLF not thinking this through properly. These glasses would absorb green indicators on your instruments as well. There are red window films available, some self adhesive (just toss them and they stick to glass).

[Ex Cargo Clown]

I would be very wary of wearing non-approved laser protecting glasses, unless you can be absolutely sure of the wavelengths they block, and the impact they may have on night vision.

[AnthonyGA]

Can someone tell me why anyone would want one of these for a legitimate purpose?

Astronomers use lasers like these to point out things of interest in the sky, or so I've heard (I hope they get their written waivers in advance from the FAA before carrying out their educational sessions, though).

In any case, just because you don't see a legitimate purpose for them doesn't mean that no legitimate purpose exists.

Many ordinary people in the world do not see any legitimate purpose for allowing anyone to fly a small airplane. It doesn't transport much in the way of passengers or cargo, and it's a potential terrorist's weapon, and it endangers people on the ground. If the continued allowance of flying for pleasure were put to a vote in the general population, it would be outlawed overnight.

So, as I've said previously, be very careful about what you wish for. The same hasty outlawing of things in which you have no personal interest can also be used to eliminate things in which you have a great personal interest.

It's often much more fair to outlaw criminal acts than to outlaw materials. For example, it's not illegal to possess a forged diploma in most jurisdictions, but it's illegal to use it for fraud (by presenting it as legitimate). That's why it's legal for actors to dress as policemen for the shooting of a movie, but illegal for them to walk around and represent themselves as real policemen to passerby.

As far as making the fine so heavy that people wont do it - do you have any idea how difficult it would be to catch someone firing a l@ser? Yes it has been done, but Christ how much manpower and resources would that take.

It's not difficult at all if you have the right tools and/or techniques. One interesting thing about a laser beam is that it leads right back to the person aiming it. That has always been a risk for laser gunsights, and it's a risk for idiots trying to blind pilots with handheld lasers. With the right equipment, you can instantly track that laser back to its source, making arrest relatively straightforward. The military has such gadgets, as well as some civilian authorities from what I've read. I presume that they are expensive, but having a few around to track down laser-wielding dregs interfering with aviation would be cost-effective.

Also, I'm not suggesting a mere fine. I'm suggesting prison. Prison terms will stop a lot more would-be laser kiddies than a mere fine might do. Someone who can afford to pay $4500 for a handheld laser isn't going to be discouraged by a $1000 fine.

Unfortunately, a lot of these dorks are likely minors, which means that even if they are caught, they won't get anything more than a slap on the hand. Perhaps in that case, a very large fine that requires their parents to sell the house might be persuasive … but that kind of question is outside the scope of this discussion.

[rottenray]

P-T writes:

Surely you have to agree not everyone is as responsible as you or any other aviation enthusiast on PPRuNe may be...

I agree with some of what you write in this post, although I think connecting our gun laws with our crime rate is a bit of a stretch. We're into a 3rd generation of kids raised mostly by daycare centers, babysitters, et cetera. And, there are countries which have much tighter gun laws and the same or greater crime rates. Perhaps you live in one.

laissez faire (look it up!) attitude sit so comfortably then

is an especially nice stretch. For what it's worth, I've never spoken out against licensing - merely a knee-jerk ban. Manage it like HAM radio, fine. Solid ban, not fine.

rotornut writes:

Laserglow Hercules 400mW Green l@ser Pointer
547N014
$4593.00

Can someone tell me why anyone would want one of these for a legitimate purpose?

I can't. Something of that power shouldn't be in "pointer" formfactor. There is no way to control its aim. There is no reason it should be that portable.

It's clearly not an instrument for amateur science, it's a high-powered toy with consequences.

Not in the "mostly harmless" category at all, I should add.

Ex Cargo Clown writes:

I would love our resident l@ser loving nutcase to give us one legitimate reason for the general public to need 200>500 mW l@sers.

If he can, I will give him a challenge, I will take 1 second of his 480mW device if he can take 1mS of the l@ser I have access to

Well, if you're referring to me, I don't appreciate being called a nutcase. Also, I find it a bit irresponsible to suggest damaging your own eyesight backed with an offer to completely destroy someone else's just to prove a hollow point on an internet forum, don't you?

And, I never said "general public." There are drivers who shouldn't be behind the wheel of a car, there are pilots who shouldn't be near a yoke or stick, there are doctors who shouldn't be practicing, and there are parents who shouldn't have children.

The world gets a little dumber every time we legislate for idiots. The keys are education and enforcement.

[Tolka]

I wonder to what extent the average member of the public realises the danger caused by pointing lasers at aircraft. After all a lot of the low powered lasers are designed for pointing things out. In some cases the perpetrators could be acting in total ignorance of their effect on pilots. I believe that the CAA and/or other aviation bodies should bring this to the attention of the press in order to publicise the danger. While prosecuting someone might stop that person a publicity campaign is likely to reach a greater audience.

[alisoncc]

Just a techie perspective, but how difficult would it be to mount a device on the nose of an aircraft that measure the angle and direction of a laser beam, then in conjunction with the aircraft's GPS provide the authorities with a precise location of the perpetrator in real time. Enabling the individual to be apprehended whilst still in possession of the laser.

[FullWings]

Just a techie perspective, but how difficult would it be to mount a device on the nose of an aircraft that measure the angle and direction of a l@ser beam, then in conjunction with the aircraft's GPS provide the authorities with a precise location of the perpetrator in real time. Enabling the individual to be apprehended whilst still in possession of the l@ser.

Probably could be done.

Why not a "retribution" lāser mounted on the nose that fires back down at the source... Don't get mad, get even!

[KBPsen]

Mounting a couple of retroreflectors should do the trick.

[lasernigel]

I would be very wary of wearing non-approved l@ser protecting glasses, unless you can be absolutely sure of the wavelengths they block, and the impact they may have on night vision.

We supply all new lasers with goggles rated at OD6, min is OD5. These are wavelength specific and cover the green 532nM wavelength. However having an OD6 visual transmission is down to 28%.

If he can, I will give him a challenge, I will take 1 second of his 480mW device if he can take 1mS of the l@ser I have access to

Don't know what you've got access to, the last industrial laser I worked on gave an 18nS pulse at 1053nM of 180J over a 3mm square pattern. Was equivalent to 1 gigapascal of energy. Not to be messed with!

[MagnusP]

Systems for adaptive optics in astronomy are typically 50W over 5 beams. There is considerable liaison between observatories and ATC. Spotters are also used in case there are non-ATC-controlled aircraft in the area. 50W could seriously ruin your day.

[mike-wsm]

Originally Posted by lasernigel

I worked on gave an 18nS pulse at 1053nM of 180J over a 3mm square pattern. Was equivalent to 1 gigapascal of energy.

Please explain. Thanks.