Henan Airlines Crash in China
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I agree with HKPAX - yes, the Chinese Government have censored stuff in the past and will probably will do in the future, but this incident appears to have been pretty transparent.
Let's give them the benefit of the doubt. It's not a Chinese plane and Embraer will be very interested in what the outcome of the investigation will be.
From my very very humble opinion this looks like CFIT. Very similar to KE all those years ago in Guam (yes that was INOP ILS but the results are similar no?).
Let's give them the benefit of the doubt. It's not a Chinese plane and Embraer will be very interested in what the outcome of the investigation will be.
From my very very humble opinion this looks like CFIT. Very similar to KE all those years ago in Guam (yes that was INOP ILS but the results are similar no?).
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"Well, well, well........ any prizes for guessing why, with the black box recovered, ATC interrogated and the pilot alive; it may takes "years to determine the cause of the crash" ? !!!"
You may recall the Spanair crash at Madrid - almost exactly two years ago. The judge will provide a report in November - if we're lucky. My guess is more like next August - that's three years. So 'years' is what it takes in Europe, too. I agree - don't knock China for the transparency of their reporting.
You may recall the Spanair crash at Madrid - almost exactly two years ago. The judge will provide a report in November - if we're lucky. My guess is more like next August - that's three years. So 'years' is what it takes in Europe, too. I agree - don't knock China for the transparency of their reporting.
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Looks as if the fuselage was relatively intact after impact but fire then made things worse.
A case to learn from for the future? Did the exit doors really not open as some news items say? What about evacuation procedures? It appears that some lives might have been saved if everything had gone by the book. Hopefully the investigation will find ways to prevent a repeat.
A case to learn from for the future? Did the exit doors really not open as some news items say? What about evacuation procedures? It appears that some lives might have been saved if everything had gone by the book. Hopefully the investigation will find ways to prevent a repeat.
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I cannot help but notice that most, if not all of the several accidents this month (737-700 Carribean/L410 Congo/E190 China etc as well as the Air Blue A321 in Pakistan a month ago, weather was a factor, if not the cause in each crash.
I wonder whether this a question of crew training stadards, or should aviation standards by authorities dictate and stop flying in certain weather?
I wonder whether this a question of crew training stadards, or should aviation standards by authorities dictate and stop flying in certain weather?
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Fatigue, poor training, Co. pressure, etc. = CFIT
In China the following as observed daily;
Flight Duty Period in excess of 14 hrs, often up to 18 or 20 hrs. for two crew duty.
When REST is provided in the form of split duty, often in; noisy, dingy, dirty, stuffy, insect infiltrated poorly constructed hotels or crew bases.
So if they give you 2 hrs REST in the above, the Company assumes you slept the entire time and expects you to operate for 18 hrs.
4 hours of REST (could mean staring at the ceiling the entire time), you will be expected to operate 18 hrs.
Even if no rest, just keep going.
So fatigue a HUGE issue!
Company pressure! Call in that you are suffering from "fatigue" and you get the same old story! "We have no Cps, no Standby's, we'll have to cancel the flight, think about the company, etc."....... I've seen too many crumble and accept to continue.
Get to Home Base fixation.
Up to 8 sectors being flown in one Duty Period in such an operation.
This Airport had only VOR approaches, at night, plenty of visual illusions. which equals a classic CFIT trap when combined with an unstabilized approach.
Often operating near or at Min. Diversion Fuel when arriving at your destination, then being greeted with this sort low visability or another form of delay.
If the diversion option is correctly selected, no doubt a phone call from the Manager after landing at the Diversion Airport giving you serious verbal criticism on your "safety minded decision".
Many Chinese Airlines practice a Visual Descent Profile (VDP). Meaning they choose to descend to the MDA, level off, then calculate the lastest point to begin descent (allows for the minimum distance to the runway) to not exceed 1000 fpm. This conflicts with most western airlines, who have chosen to use Constent Descent Profiles (never a level off at the MDA).
Yet to see a Chinese airline to have proceedures for Pilot protection or support in such a case.
For example if a Foreigner was part of this Crew, you can well imagine over $100,000 in legal costs from the get-go.
After hospital release, directly to jail carrying your own IV in your mouth while using Crutches with 2 broken arms.
Perhaps being jailed for up to 5 yrs. while this process un-folds into multi $100K expenses - all from your own resources!
You will just rot here!
If found negligent - death penalty possible and ypu pay for the bullet or injection!
Flight Crew Training - well that is another issue.
So flyers beware working or considering it here in China.
Flight Duty Period in excess of 14 hrs, often up to 18 or 20 hrs. for two crew duty.
When REST is provided in the form of split duty, often in; noisy, dingy, dirty, stuffy, insect infiltrated poorly constructed hotels or crew bases.
So if they give you 2 hrs REST in the above, the Company assumes you slept the entire time and expects you to operate for 18 hrs.
4 hours of REST (could mean staring at the ceiling the entire time), you will be expected to operate 18 hrs.
Even if no rest, just keep going.
So fatigue a HUGE issue!
Company pressure! Call in that you are suffering from "fatigue" and you get the same old story! "We have no Cps, no Standby's, we'll have to cancel the flight, think about the company, etc."....... I've seen too many crumble and accept to continue.
Get to Home Base fixation.
Up to 8 sectors being flown in one Duty Period in such an operation.
This Airport had only VOR approaches, at night, plenty of visual illusions. which equals a classic CFIT trap when combined with an unstabilized approach.
Often operating near or at Min. Diversion Fuel when arriving at your destination, then being greeted with this sort low visability or another form of delay.
If the diversion option is correctly selected, no doubt a phone call from the Manager after landing at the Diversion Airport giving you serious verbal criticism on your "safety minded decision".
Many Chinese Airlines practice a Visual Descent Profile (VDP). Meaning they choose to descend to the MDA, level off, then calculate the lastest point to begin descent (allows for the minimum distance to the runway) to not exceed 1000 fpm. This conflicts with most western airlines, who have chosen to use Constent Descent Profiles (never a level off at the MDA).
Yet to see a Chinese airline to have proceedures for Pilot protection or support in such a case.
For example if a Foreigner was part of this Crew, you can well imagine over $100,000 in legal costs from the get-go.
After hospital release, directly to jail carrying your own IV in your mouth while using Crutches with 2 broken arms.
Perhaps being jailed for up to 5 yrs. while this process un-folds into multi $100K expenses - all from your own resources!
You will just rot here!
If found negligent - death penalty possible and ypu pay for the bullet or injection!
Flight Crew Training - well that is another issue.
So flyers beware working or considering it here in China.
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Originally Posted by Brookfield Abused
In China the following as observed daily;
-Unwillingness to disseminate WX observations when needed(significant changes) in addition to the top and bottom of the hour reports.
-Control tower that are fully lighted(interior) at night, preventing controllers a visual confirmation of WX conditions and traffic.
-Functional, and at night lighted, wind socks.
-Substandard airport, taxiway and runway signs.(not applicable to all airports)
-Unwillingness, by the vast majority of local flight crews, to enter (record) any maintenance issues into the logbook.
have many more, but need to measure my level of frustration
for the day.:
COLOCOLO
To those who equate Chinese investigative procedures with Western ones:
Read between the lines please. I'm not knocking the timing. Flight Safety, CRM and transparency in incident/accident reporting are not on a par with the West. A rigid system of conformity and penalties, the reliability of the airframes and some good pilots have combined to produce a low accident rate.
You will not see an AIB type report on this accident.
Read between the lines please. I'm not knocking the timing. Flight Safety, CRM and transparency in incident/accident reporting are not on a par with the West. A rigid system of conformity and penalties, the reliability of the airframes and some good pilots have combined to produce a low accident rate.
You will not see an AIB type report on this accident.
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Hi ya.
"You will not see an AIB type report on this accident."
I totally agree. With one exception, the Korean MD-11 crash in Shanghai in 1999, I havenīt seen a Chinese accident report in my professional live. And this report was some kind of strange, because it was just a list of things "what" happened, but no try to find out the "why".
For other accidents in China, (even in western a/c types) I have seen just extracts or summaries. If you have a look on the website of the Chinese civil aviation authorities, the respective part is "under construction" forever.
On the other hand, in comparison to the early nineties, the statistics proofed an obvious improvement.
But this was in fact not very hard to achieve: I remember a story from a friend, how has a transition course at Airbus together with some pilots from China: To his opinion, the most skilled and gifted pilot from this group was the accompanying translator.
Regards,
Stubenfliege
"You will not see an AIB type report on this accident."
I totally agree. With one exception, the Korean MD-11 crash in Shanghai in 1999, I havenīt seen a Chinese accident report in my professional live. And this report was some kind of strange, because it was just a list of things "what" happened, but no try to find out the "why".
For other accidents in China, (even in western a/c types) I have seen just extracts or summaries. If you have a look on the website of the Chinese civil aviation authorities, the respective part is "under construction" forever.
On the other hand, in comparison to the early nineties, the statistics proofed an obvious improvement.
But this was in fact not very hard to achieve: I remember a story from a friend, how has a transition course at Airbus together with some pilots from China: To his opinion, the most skilled and gifted pilot from this group was the accompanying translator.
Regards,
Stubenfliege
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Brookfield abused and colocolo,
Flying for a chinese airlines here are my thoughts..
Flight plans are accurate and 99% of time the most distant alternate is used so you end up carrying way to much fuel.
Any tempo CBs at your destination or alternate,dispatch will reward you with 1t extra.
Issue in china is ATC is not reliable and you may have to hold for 2 or 3 turns in the middle of your flight because the next sector cant accept you just yet(and thats after 2 hours flow control on the ground)..
But so far 400 kgs was the max used for these problems anf fligjt plans account for it.
I diverted once due to atc no being able to advise me how long would be the delay due to bad weather at destination.
The company NEVER blamed the crew.A detailed report was made by me explaining the reason for diversion.
Concerning the maintenance i can tell you that our aircraft are very well maintained and if you deem necessary to change a tire it will be done expeditiously.
Any requests to maintenance was dealt with efficiently.
I do write into techlog for your info..
Concerning duty time, they are indeed long.however if you are expecting to go over just call your dispatcher.
A friend of mine had to call the fom who then agreed with him that he couldnt continue and dispatch was told the same.
Dispatch may try to convince you otherwise but hey you are the captain and it is your final decision.
Believe me this happens everywhere even where i flew in europe.
14 hours can be extended to 16 hours for 2 crews.long duties are mostly due to long flow control( mostly summer).yes,one local CB and u git urself 1 hour delay..makes your task easier..just seat and wait.
Flights are easy,mostly 2 sectors(4-7 hours long), not like low costs..so all in all i prefer the stress staring at the ceiling in a 1star hotel for 3 hours than constantly making decisions whether you can safely takeoff during a stormy evening with no flow control.
Substandard airports...
Bejing atc is poor,any queries outside of their usual perrot aviation,they are lost,this is when your fo comes handy!!!
I guess u must be american cause in europe some airports are much worse than here..ever flew to bucharest baneasa? Krakow in poland?
Yes they dont use continious descent here but the vdp point is calculated befire starting the approach not when at mda...
Either works for me eventhough i prefer continious descent.
Salaries:
beat all that is on offer and way more than europe.
There may be the reason for all you whiners to still stay around here while dreaming about your home golden spoon major airlines in and out of bankrupcy.
Safe flights!
Flying for a chinese airlines here are my thoughts..
Flight plans are accurate and 99% of time the most distant alternate is used so you end up carrying way to much fuel.
Any tempo CBs at your destination or alternate,dispatch will reward you with 1t extra.
Issue in china is ATC is not reliable and you may have to hold for 2 or 3 turns in the middle of your flight because the next sector cant accept you just yet(and thats after 2 hours flow control on the ground)..
But so far 400 kgs was the max used for these problems anf fligjt plans account for it.
I diverted once due to atc no being able to advise me how long would be the delay due to bad weather at destination.
The company NEVER blamed the crew.A detailed report was made by me explaining the reason for diversion.
Concerning the maintenance i can tell you that our aircraft are very well maintained and if you deem necessary to change a tire it will be done expeditiously.
Any requests to maintenance was dealt with efficiently.
I do write into techlog for your info..
Concerning duty time, they are indeed long.however if you are expecting to go over just call your dispatcher.
A friend of mine had to call the fom who then agreed with him that he couldnt continue and dispatch was told the same.
Dispatch may try to convince you otherwise but hey you are the captain and it is your final decision.
Believe me this happens everywhere even where i flew in europe.
14 hours can be extended to 16 hours for 2 crews.long duties are mostly due to long flow control( mostly summer).yes,one local CB and u git urself 1 hour delay..makes your task easier..just seat and wait.
Flights are easy,mostly 2 sectors(4-7 hours long), not like low costs..so all in all i prefer the stress staring at the ceiling in a 1star hotel for 3 hours than constantly making decisions whether you can safely takeoff during a stormy evening with no flow control.
Substandard airports...
Bejing atc is poor,any queries outside of their usual perrot aviation,they are lost,this is when your fo comes handy!!!
I guess u must be american cause in europe some airports are much worse than here..ever flew to bucharest baneasa? Krakow in poland?
Yes they dont use continious descent here but the vdp point is calculated befire starting the approach not when at mda...
Either works for me eventhough i prefer continious descent.
Salaries:
beat all that is on offer and way more than europe.
There may be the reason for all you whiners to still stay around here while dreaming about your home golden spoon major airlines in and out of bankrupcy.
Safe flights!
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It seems the airline are being told to change their name.
Not sure on how accurate the source is.
AFP: China's Henan Airlines to change name: report
Not sure on how accurate the source is.
AFP: China's Henan Airlines to change name: report
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de facto (#55)
I am a passenger , not a pilot, but have a son flying out of HK.
a month ago we were making our first trip to China mainland and I contacted a friend in Hamburg who has a brother working for Airbus, to ask about the type, age etc. of planes we might encounter on the internal flights.
In short he told me that Airbus alone sell 19 -20 aircraft per month to Reginal airlines in China and I would at least not have to worry about the airframe being old.
Our experience was a wonderful surprise with 4 flights on 4 different airlines - 3 Airbus single aisle and one 737 - all brand new with Chinese flight deck and cabin crew. Very polite and proud of their jobs.
Landings were some of the smoothest I have ever had. - some in poor visibility.
Airports were new with lots of construction going on and all flights left on time.
Thanks de facto for a bit of positive insight from the flight deck side.
a month ago we were making our first trip to China mainland and I contacted a friend in Hamburg who has a brother working for Airbus, to ask about the type, age etc. of planes we might encounter on the internal flights.
In short he told me that Airbus alone sell 19 -20 aircraft per month to Reginal airlines in China and I would at least not have to worry about the airframe being old.
Our experience was a wonderful surprise with 4 flights on 4 different airlines - 3 Airbus single aisle and one 737 - all brand new with Chinese flight deck and cabin crew. Very polite and proud of their jobs.
Landings were some of the smoothest I have ever had. - some in poor visibility.
Airports were new with lots of construction going on and all flights left on time.
Thanks de facto for a bit of positive insight from the flight deck side.
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Many Chinese Airlines practice a Visual Descent Profile (VDP). Meaning they choose to descend to the MDA, level off, then calculate the lastest point to begin descent (allows for the minimum distance to the runway) to not exceed 1000 fpm. This conflicts with most western airlines, who have chosen to use Constent Descent Profiles (never a level off at the MDA).
PM
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"The aircraft which crashed at Madrid wasn't in Spanair colours. It was in Star Alliance colours." . . .with Spanair written in very large letters on the forward fuselage. My point remains relevant - Spanair changed it's tailfin and corporate logo after the Madrid crash.
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de facto:
What?
Did you ever fly in Colombia, Guyana (all 3), Africa, etc, etc. Who cares! Just because there is much worse does not justify shortcomings. Besides, I was referring to the markings not their abilities as air traffic controllers.
You guessed wrong, and again, what difference does it make what nationality I am?
On this theme we are in agreement.
Boa Sorte
Colocolo
There may be the reason for all you whiners to still stay around here while dreaming about your home golden spoon major airlines in and out of bankrupcy.
Substandard airports...
Bejing atc is poor,any queries outside of their usual perrot aviation,they are lost,this is when your fo comes handy!!!
I guess u must be american cause in europe some airports are much worse than here..ever flew to bucharest baneasa? Krakow in poland?
Bejing atc is poor,any queries outside of their usual perrot aviation,they are lost,this is when your fo comes handy!!!
I guess u must be american cause in europe some airports are much worse than here..ever flew to bucharest baneasa? Krakow in poland?
You guessed wrong, and again, what difference does it make what nationality I am?
Salaries:
beat all that is on offer and way more than europe
beat all that is on offer and way more than europe
Boa Sorte
Colocolo
Guess the fact that new owners had bought Spanair from SAS a couple of months earlier wasn't a factor then... 