Easyjet Planning $4bn Aircraft Order - Boeing or Airbus?
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Acquiring a further 75 Boeings wouldn't necessarily lock EZY in to Boeing ad infinitum. Look at the deal Boeing came up with at Singapore to get the 777 into service with them.
That apart the Boeing will always have the edge over the Airbus for the low cost operators. The full service (high fare ) carriers operate in to established airports with the infrastructure to cope with large jet aircraft: jetways, container baggage systems etc. The Airbus requires substantial ground support and equipment, it need stairs or jetways and canoot be loaded from ground level without equipment. On the other hand the Boeing has integral stairs and the baggage can be loaded and unloaded by a couple of guys with a donkey and cart as the holds are all accessible from the ground without steps etc.This benefit is substantial to the low cost operator who generally operates in to less well established, or joint civil military airfields e.g. Torp, Treviso, Save, Dinard etc.
As for the pax, they get a tad damp when walking to the airplane in the rain and snow but have you flown bmi from EMA? They have the problem there due to the lack of jetways at the airport.
That apart the Boeing will always have the edge over the Airbus for the low cost operators. The full service (high fare ) carriers operate in to established airports with the infrastructure to cope with large jet aircraft: jetways, container baggage systems etc. The Airbus requires substantial ground support and equipment, it need stairs or jetways and canoot be loaded from ground level without equipment. On the other hand the Boeing has integral stairs and the baggage can be loaded and unloaded by a couple of guys with a donkey and cart as the holds are all accessible from the ground without steps etc.This benefit is substantial to the low cost operator who generally operates in to less well established, or joint civil military airfields e.g. Torp, Treviso, Save, Dinard etc.
As for the pax, they get a tad damp when walking to the airplane in the rain and snow but have you flown bmi from EMA? They have the problem there due to the lack of jetways at the airport.
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Vee2,
Some valid points, but......
1) More ground equipment needed for loading Airbus due to height of holds. May be true when compared with 'old generation' 737's, but the New Generation is taller. Many easyJet stations load the -300 rear hold without belt loaders, etc, but have to use belt loaders for the -700. This point therefore largely irrelevant to the debate.
2) "Acquiring another 75 Boeings wouldn't necessarily lock easy into Boeing". True, but it would make easy less willing to look elsewhere, and Boeing would know that. With the current market conditions (post-Sept 11th), and Airbus keen to break into European low-cost market with this 'modified' A319 to the required config, now is a good time economically to 'make the break'.
In trim.
Some valid points, but......
1) More ground equipment needed for loading Airbus due to height of holds. May be true when compared with 'old generation' 737's, but the New Generation is taller. Many easyJet stations load the -300 rear hold without belt loaders, etc, but have to use belt loaders for the -700. This point therefore largely irrelevant to the debate.
2) "Acquiring another 75 Boeings wouldn't necessarily lock easy into Boeing". True, but it would make easy less willing to look elsewhere, and Boeing would know that. With the current market conditions (post-Sept 11th), and Airbus keen to break into European low-cost market with this 'modified' A319 to the required config, now is a good time economically to 'make the break'.
In trim.
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some people above seem to be a bit mixed up about the NG 737 and the 3,4,500 aircraft.
The NG normal econ cruse is about M.79 , max alt is FL 410 it is CAT3a (50ftRA 300RVR)and it will move a full pax load (189 on the 800)for 6 hours with normal reserves.
As for the technical reliability I,v had two problems in two years only one stoped the aircraft flying.
Which aircraft should easy buy ?.......the one that is the best deal ,after all this is not a flying club the aim is to make money.
The NG normal econ cruse is about M.79 , max alt is FL 410 it is CAT3a (50ftRA 300RVR)and it will move a full pax load (189 on the 800)for 6 hours with normal reserves.
As for the technical reliability I,v had two problems in two years only one stoped the aircraft flying.
Which aircraft should easy buy ?.......the one that is the best deal ,after all this is not a flying club the aim is to make money.
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A and C - sounds like you're mixed up. Cat 111a aircraft work to an RVR not less than 200m;I went tech. last month six times on the 700 (out of 34 sectors) and the flying club which gave me the 'bug' is still in business fifty years after it was started - I reckon that means it makes a profit! <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
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For what its worth, I've flown both A319/320 and all versions of the 737 except for the NG. I rode in back on CO from SEA to EWR on an 800 this past summer and I was pleasantly suprised. Very comfortable. The Bus is great to fly but after 5000 hours in the left seat I'm ready to try something diffrent. I am tired of fighting with flight standards people who want the automation on all the time. I hand fly all my approaches and I would prefer the HUD for CAT 2 or 3 the way SWA does it. I have been in the J/S for a CAT 1 approach and I think it is great. I have always admired the French Aeropostal guys for hand flying their approaches. Its great to have an autopilot and autoland capabilities for times when you are toast from flying all night but as a standard I would rather not.
Easy Jet should continue with 737s not for the above reasons but because it makes the most sense. As much as I dislike the Herb Turds (SWA) for the type of flying and the type of pax they do I admire them for having the best balance sheet in the business and the foresight to stick to their plan. Boeing did not seem to have a problem giving them discounts when they made their last order. A mixed fleet when you are doing the same type of flying makes little sense. We operate both and it forces all sorts of bad crew schedules operating a mixed fleet into the same cities(a lot of 30 hour layovers for no pay).
As far as safety both are the same, just diffrent issues.
Easy Jet should continue with 737s not for the above reasons but because it makes the most sense. As much as I dislike the Herb Turds (SWA) for the type of flying and the type of pax they do I admire them for having the best balance sheet in the business and the foresight to stick to their plan. Boeing did not seem to have a problem giving them discounts when they made their last order. A mixed fleet when you are doing the same type of flying makes little sense. We operate both and it forces all sorts of bad crew schedules operating a mixed fleet into the same cities(a lot of 30 hour layovers for no pay).
As far as safety both are the same, just diffrent issues.
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A few previous posts comment on the 737NG only being Cat 3A. Just to take this issue out of the debate, all easy's -700's from about number 12 or so will be delivered Cat 3B. A319 also Cat 3B capable.
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Face it , the only reason anyone likes the scarebus is because there's a meal tray that folds down in front of you, and the control column doesn't get in the way of your beer gut. Bar that it's effectively working it's way to doing pilots out of a job. If you scarebus fans want that,then fine (in fact you'd probably be happier at your PCs anyway). Personally I'm trained to do this job, and would rather do it, rather than have it subcontracted to bunch of clever geeks, who've worked out that it isn't necessary for pilots to have thrust levers etc etc, ad nauseam.
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Interesting debate about airbus and boeing bubbling away.
As far as realiability was concerned boeing 737/200 was far more realiable than new shiny ai
rbus a320s in the middle east.
Airbus hydraulic systems and air conditioning systems were not man enough for the job.
Easyjet should stay with boeing both for training and long term maintenance. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
As far as realiability was concerned boeing 737/200 was far more realiable than new shiny ai
rbus a320s in the middle east.
Airbus hydraulic systems and air conditioning systems were not man enough for the job.
Easyjet should stay with boeing both for training and long term maintenance. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
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easy should go with Boeing, that way we all know there are real pilots up front not play station joc's!
not nice i know but very true in my experience as a training captain after 3 year of flying airbuses pilot lose basic skills even things like decision making
not nice i know but very true in my experience as a training captain after 3 year of flying airbuses pilot lose basic skills even things like decision making
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Boss man, in the last three years I have gone from Boeing to Airbus and back to Boeing again thanks to friend Bin Liner, and apart from a bit of "where the hell is that switch?" I don't feel that my flying ability has been in any way reduced.If you walk like a pilot, talk like a pilot and look like a pilot, then you are one and aircraft type makes little difference IMHO.
Prehaps as a trainer you see more of folk under pressure but day to day I really find the whole Boeing v Airbus debate as amusing but irrelevant in terms of ability of crews.
In terms of Easyjets future acquisition plans, no doubt economics will win the day and rightly so, much as I would like to eat my breakfast off a tray again. The future methinks is Boeing shaped.
Prehaps as a trainer you see more of folk under pressure but day to day I really find the whole Boeing v Airbus debate as amusing but irrelevant in terms of ability of crews.
In terms of Easyjets future acquisition plans, no doubt economics will win the day and rightly so, much as I would like to eat my breakfast off a tray again. The future methinks is Boeing shaped.
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Danish Pilot - 1 man operating controls and hi-loader, 2 men to secure bins on dollies, same 2 to empty bags at belts and hopefully a man to put outbound bins back on to hi-loader.
You said you can pull bins out manually which is very true and takes a VERY LONG TIME. This is what you don't have for an easyjet turnaround!
Airtours 767 "MC" caused serious injury to one handler because the hold system wasn't working.
Health and safety regulations were strictly followed and several workers refused to work on the a/c until it was fixed. I don't like pulling 1 tonne LD8's off an a/c, do you???
Easyjet can't afford to risk more delays because of loading/unloading difficulties. They have to keep it simple ie. 737's.
But not the -800 cos its a f****r of a plane without a carpet!
You said you can pull bins out manually which is very true and takes a VERY LONG TIME. This is what you don't have for an easyjet turnaround!
Airtours 767 "MC" caused serious injury to one handler because the hold system wasn't working.
Health and safety regulations were strictly followed and several workers refused to work on the a/c until it was fixed. I don't like pulling 1 tonne LD8's off an a/c, do you???
Easyjet can't afford to risk more delays because of loading/unloading difficulties. They have to keep it simple ie. 737's.
But not the -800 cos its a f****r of a plane without a carpet!
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If you push buttons and twiddle knobs for years then your skills as a handling pilot diminish.
I too started on Boeings converted to Airbus and back again. During my 1500 hours on Airbuses and on 4 separate aircraft I felt scared, whether Airbus like it or not those of us with the stripes on up front know best, I can tell a junior FO “I have control” its far harder telling the dame plane as we are on a 6.5 degree glide slope its determine to fly.
What ever you fly but especially Airbus joc’s you should fly at least 25 hours a year in a light a/c preferably a twin but a pa28 will do. Go fly in some demanding weather, shoot an approach or two.
I do this a lot at weekends with some very experienced pilots, 9/10 airbus joc’s can’t fly the plane most of them will have completed their IR’s in, the Boeing drivers might be a bit rusty but they can fly
I too started on Boeings converted to Airbus and back again. During my 1500 hours on Airbuses and on 4 separate aircraft I felt scared, whether Airbus like it or not those of us with the stripes on up front know best, I can tell a junior FO “I have control” its far harder telling the dame plane as we are on a 6.5 degree glide slope its determine to fly.
What ever you fly but especially Airbus joc’s you should fly at least 25 hours a year in a light a/c preferably a twin but a pa28 will do. Go fly in some demanding weather, shoot an approach or two.
I do this a lot at weekends with some very experienced pilots, 9/10 airbus joc’s can’t fly the plane most of them will have completed their IR’s in, the Boeing drivers might be a bit rusty but they can fly
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This started out as a thread on easyJet's assessment of whether to buy a different aircraft type.....a decision which will no doubt be based on sound business / economic principles, following a detailed study.
But surprise, surprise, it's turning into another Boeing v Airbus debate. Please don't let another thread go down the same path as many others in the past!!
In trim
But surprise, surprise, it's turning into another Boeing v Airbus debate. Please don't let another thread go down the same path as many others in the past!!
In trim
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Boeing / Airbus ?
I know, go for Boebus, then every ones happy !?
(Airing sounds silly !)
Back to the actual thread !
EZY certainly got it right it seems,
thats a phenomenal expansion from their start up.
I know, go for Boebus, then every ones happy !?
(Airing sounds silly !)
Back to the actual thread !
EZY certainly got it right it seems,
thats a phenomenal expansion from their start up.
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So back when this interesting topic was first introduced....I wondered and asked when we might here a verdict on this all important issue.....as so much time has gone by.....I will ask again as the debate has been thoroughly discussed!
I would hope that EasyJet would make a decision soon so to end the debate for awhile or perhaps change the comments to things like "I told you so!"
I would hope that EasyJet would make a decision soon so to end the debate for awhile or perhaps change the comments to things like "I told you so!"
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Tug4itsfastest:
"....1 man operating controls and hi-loader, 2 men to secure bins on dollies, same 2 to empty bags at belts and hopefully a man to put outbound bins back on to hi-loader.
You said you can pull bins out manually which is very true and takes a VERY LONG TIME. This is what you don't have for an easyjet turnaround...."
Hmmmm, we do it (did it, regarding myself) different. The total time to handle an aeroplane of equal size is more or less the same. But regarding the 737's time i spent out at the apron, where as on Airbus time i spent in the baggage sorting aera, and not on the apron. We had one guy for the cargobay, and the highloader. The other guy drives the bins from the loader to the dollies. Thats two! The guy who drives the bins into the baggage claim, comes from a different aera, and he secure the dollies (takes about 2 sek.) When the bins are out, only compartment #4/5 is left, but not much in there. So it takes two guys, at least that how we did it for 5 years, no problems at all. When we only are two guys (normally three) on the Airbus 319/20/21 we are flexible, since we donīt care who have to drive the bins into baggage claim, just as long someone shows up to drive them. That is a very flexible system since we can move from one plane to another in no time. I cannot understand why you say it is hard to pull the bins out manually...? This is where I mean that Airbus are ahead of Boeing. The floor in the cargobay on the A319/20/21 is flat and no holes to step into. The floor have hundreds of small golfsize balls, which the bins rest on. I can pull and push them with one hand, takes no strengh at all. That is not possible on the Boeing.
".....Airtours 767 "MC" caused serious injury to one handler because the hold system wasn't working.
Health and safety regulations were strictly followed and several workers refused to work on the a/c until it was fixed. I don't like pulling 1 tonne LD8's off an a/c, do you???....."
No, and I wouldn't even try, because its a Boeing, so it cannot be done...
Remember that the LD8 containers, are bigger than the ones used for the Airbus A320 series. The floor on the 767 prevent that the containers can move without the use of the on/off loading system. On the A320 that is possible.
"....Easyjet can't afford to risk more delays because of loading/unloading difficulties. They have to keep it simple ie. 737's.
But not the -800 cos its a f****r of a plane without a carpet!...."
Precise...!! They have to keep it simple, and go for the plane that spend time up in the air, not on the ground. Airbus please...!!!!!
(sorry for my spelling)
"....1 man operating controls and hi-loader, 2 men to secure bins on dollies, same 2 to empty bags at belts and hopefully a man to put outbound bins back on to hi-loader.
You said you can pull bins out manually which is very true and takes a VERY LONG TIME. This is what you don't have for an easyjet turnaround...."
Hmmmm, we do it (did it, regarding myself) different. The total time to handle an aeroplane of equal size is more or less the same. But regarding the 737's time i spent out at the apron, where as on Airbus time i spent in the baggage sorting aera, and not on the apron. We had one guy for the cargobay, and the highloader. The other guy drives the bins from the loader to the dollies. Thats two! The guy who drives the bins into the baggage claim, comes from a different aera, and he secure the dollies (takes about 2 sek.) When the bins are out, only compartment #4/5 is left, but not much in there. So it takes two guys, at least that how we did it for 5 years, no problems at all. When we only are two guys (normally three) on the Airbus 319/20/21 we are flexible, since we donīt care who have to drive the bins into baggage claim, just as long someone shows up to drive them. That is a very flexible system since we can move from one plane to another in no time. I cannot understand why you say it is hard to pull the bins out manually...? This is where I mean that Airbus are ahead of Boeing. The floor in the cargobay on the A319/20/21 is flat and no holes to step into. The floor have hundreds of small golfsize balls, which the bins rest on. I can pull and push them with one hand, takes no strengh at all. That is not possible on the Boeing.
".....Airtours 767 "MC" caused serious injury to one handler because the hold system wasn't working.
Health and safety regulations were strictly followed and several workers refused to work on the a/c until it was fixed. I don't like pulling 1 tonne LD8's off an a/c, do you???....."
No, and I wouldn't even try, because its a Boeing, so it cannot be done...
Remember that the LD8 containers, are bigger than the ones used for the Airbus A320 series. The floor on the 767 prevent that the containers can move without the use of the on/off loading system. On the A320 that is possible."....Easyjet can't afford to risk more delays because of loading/unloading difficulties. They have to keep it simple ie. 737's.
But not the -800 cos its a f****r of a plane without a carpet!...."
Precise...!! They have to keep it simple, and go for the plane that spend time up in the air, not on the ground. Airbus please...!!!!!
(sorry for my spelling)