Flight attendant helps land plane at O'Hare
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she's fit!
thanks for the photo--she has taken good care of herself!
oh, must throw some congrats in here as well.
-ah about the flying bit as well.
having her sit next to you, would make any one's flying skills improve!
oh, must throw some congrats in here as well.
-ah about the flying bit as well.
having her sit next to you, would make any one's flying skills improve!
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Jumbo 744
"....but what exactly has she done in the cockpit? read the checklists, tune in radio and nav? I think that would be all. I'm glad she said she didn't feel like a hero."
Are you serious? surely all you've managed to do is de-value the role of the FO - as someone who has to repeatedly justify my position and that of my staff, I'd be dissapointed if one of them had used similar phrasology in defining a colleagues job!
these comments add weight to the Embrear Single Pilot arguement
"....but what exactly has she done in the cockpit? read the checklists, tune in radio and nav? I think that would be all. I'm glad she said she didn't feel like a hero."
Are you serious? surely all you've managed to do is de-value the role of the FO - as someone who has to repeatedly justify my position and that of my staff, I'd be dissapointed if one of them had used similar phrasology in defining a colleagues job!
these comments add weight to the Embrear Single Pilot arguement
concur
I concur with Alpine , it makes sense to use all available CR, it's just good common sense CRM really, hats off to all concerned - personally, if I ran an airline (unlikely !) I'd want to have as many cabin crew folk as possible to have at least some flying knowledge but then I'm old school from the days when bean counters didn't rule the roost 
(in-coming, I can sense the flak approaching already ! - tin hats on folks !)
(in-coming, I can sense the flak approaching already ! - tin hats on folks !)
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Cabin crew should certainly be encouraged to have flying skills, and be able to use the radio. Just as partners of pilots in light aircraft are encouraged to undergo a basic survival course in how to use the radio, call for help, and land it if the PIC snuffs it enroute.
Having gone through the scenario on a BA111 simulator at Cranebank, with 30 hours PPL, I did push the wrong button initially (disconecting the autopilot) but on being allowed a second chance, was talked down successfully at LHR....
So if pilots are incapacitated, and it does happen, perhaps even the most basic training would be better than nothing.
Having gone through the scenario on a BA111 simulator at Cranebank, with 30 hours PPL, I did push the wrong button initially (disconecting the autopilot) but on being allowed a second chance, was talked down successfully at LHR....
So if pilots are incapacitated, and it does happen, perhaps even the most basic training would be better than nothing.
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Downroute Danger?
A thought just occurred to me (don't take this too seriously, just thinking out loud). Maybe airlines should ban downroute socialising between pilots? After all, if they both ate in the same restaurant they could both have come down with the "stomache flu" together.
Then what would they have done?
Then what would they have done?
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The captain didn't need anybody in the cockpit to sit in the right seat. He chose to because it fit into our CRM thinking. She could do little to help if he could reach the gear and flap handle. Reading the checklist was nice but not neccessary. He could have done it. I occasionally flew the Citation single pilot jet solo and didn't feel overworked at all. Airliners work about the same. Nice she could get some good press though.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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An excellent decision and praiseworthy for all concerned.
Let's just think OUTSIDE the sky-god box for a moment. Suppose the Captain had chosen that part of the flight to have a coronary? What would YOU prefer in the right-hand seat - seat cushions or someone with basic flying skills and an ability to talk on the radio and possibly set up an autoland? Simples.
Let's just think OUTSIDE the sky-god box for a moment. Suppose the Captain had chosen that part of the flight to have a coronary? What would YOU prefer in the right-hand seat - seat cushions or someone with basic flying skills and an ability to talk on the radio and possibly set up an autoland? Simples.
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Yes, multiple incapacitations is always a possibility. In 2012, the end of the Mayan calendar, we probably should schedule to avoid the rapture from causing multiple pilotless airplanes too. It was nice she had a little experience and was a back up but the press went nuts over this story. I think people have to realize this was another non event blown out of proportion by the press.
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Originally Posted by p51guy
I think people have to realize this was another non event blown out of proportion by the press
Many airlines have an SOP for FA's to assist on the flightdeck in minor ways during pilot incap events. Your own experience appears to indicate that this would be unnecessary: Sadly, not all may agree.
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Wildfire
I am sorry but you can't compare the role of an F/O, who, just like the captain, is absolutely qualified to fly the plane and trained for, and has experience on it, and the role of someone unprepared with just basic flying skills sitting in the right seat of a B767 because of special circumstances.
In my eyes, a "hero" would be the young man that landed a King Air 200 after the Pilot died while climbing out of somewhere in Florida (2 month ago i think).
I strongly believe that Embraer's Single Pilot vision will never see the light. If it does, I'll never accept to be a passenger in a single pilot plane and I think most of the public will do the same.
In my eyes, a "hero" would be the young man that landed a King Air 200 after the Pilot died while climbing out of somewhere in Florida (2 month ago i think).
I strongly believe that Embraer's Single Pilot vision will never see the light. If it does, I'll never accept to be a passenger in a single pilot plane and I think most of the public will do the same.
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"...with just basic flying skills sitting in the right seat of a B767 because of special circumstances."
You must know a lot about that, since your profile shows you to currently be a VFR single-engine "commercial pilot." Might that be a flight instructor in 150s?
I don't think anybody is claiming that the media coverage was overblown, but I'm also tired of so many people claiming--perhaps because she's a woman, perhaps because she's a mere "flight attendant"--that she didn't have perfectly useful skills. Nobody is saying she grabbed a fistful of throttles and put that puppy down and made the first high-speed turnoff, but let's admit that what she needed to do, she was quite able to do.
You must know a lot about that, since your profile shows you to currently be a VFR single-engine "commercial pilot." Might that be a flight instructor in 150s?
I don't think anybody is claiming that the media coverage was overblown, but I'm also tired of so many people claiming--perhaps because she's a woman, perhaps because she's a mere "flight attendant"--that she didn't have perfectly useful skills. Nobody is saying she grabbed a fistful of throttles and put that puppy down and made the first high-speed turnoff, but let's admit that what she needed to do, she was quite able to do.
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stepwilk
Where do you come up with that "because she is a woman" stuff?
don't get me wrong, I'm not saying she was useless, all I'm saying is that this story is overblown.
You say "let's admit that what she needed to do, she was quite able to do", well tell us, what did she do?
You mentionned my experience. I have to update this, I have just passed my Multi-Engine flight test on Friday, and IFR flight test is planned for Wednesday. I'm flying to Africa next week to start my first job as a King Air F/O.
If you had put me in that 767 cockpit, i don't see what i could have done to help the captain: maybe read the checklists, turn on the lights, bring down the gear, comms. Not enough to make the news headline me thinks.
I'm really interested to hear from B767 captains on this forum about what tasks they would have assigned to the FA in such circumstances.
don't get me wrong, I'm not saying she was useless, all I'm saying is that this story is overblown.
You say "let's admit that what she needed to do, she was quite able to do", well tell us, what did she do?
You mentionned my experience. I have to update this, I have just passed my Multi-Engine flight test on Friday, and IFR flight test is planned for Wednesday. I'm flying to Africa next week to start my first job as a King Air F/O.
If you had put me in that 767 cockpit, i don't see what i could have done to help the captain: maybe read the checklists, turn on the lights, bring down the gear, comms. Not enough to make the news headline me thinks.
I'm really interested to hear from B767 captains on this forum about what tasks they would have assigned to the FA in such circumstances.
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Well, that's great news about your upgrades, congratulations! Seriously.
And what you say about the story being overblown is just what I said, so we're in total agreement there.
I'm just annoyed by the constant downplaying of what she might have done, both on this forum and on the very popular U. S. blog "Ask the Pilot," on Salon.
Here's what she might have done, and it's pretty much what any PNF might have done: Handled the comms, set the altimeters, put out flaps and gear, and looked out for VFR traffic. I think anybody with 300 hours on a CPL, even if it was years ago, would be able to do that. People also seem to think 300 hours barely lets you leave the traffic pattern, which is ridiculous. I was flying serious turbo twins into and out of high-density terminals when I had 300 hours, though granted it was 35 years ago.
Yet everybody seems to think that all she did was fart into the seatcushions. Obviously maybe the PF assigned her no duties at all, I don't know.
And where did the "because she's a woman stuff" come from? Perhaps just decades of hearing peoples' reactions when I tell people my wife's a pilot too, with a handful of ratings including multi-engine.
And what you say about the story being overblown is just what I said, so we're in total agreement there.
I'm just annoyed by the constant downplaying of what she might have done, both on this forum and on the very popular U. S. blog "Ask the Pilot," on Salon.
Here's what she might have done, and it's pretty much what any PNF might have done: Handled the comms, set the altimeters, put out flaps and gear, and looked out for VFR traffic. I think anybody with 300 hours on a CPL, even if it was years ago, would be able to do that. People also seem to think 300 hours barely lets you leave the traffic pattern, which is ridiculous. I was flying serious turbo twins into and out of high-density terminals when I had 300 hours, though granted it was 35 years ago.
Yet everybody seems to think that all she did was fart into the seatcushions. Obviously maybe the PF assigned her no duties at all, I don't know.
And where did the "because she's a woman stuff" come from? Perhaps just decades of hearing peoples' reactions when I tell people my wife's a pilot too, with a handful of ratings including multi-engine.
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Originally Posted by stepwilk
And what you say about the story being overblown is just what I said, so we're in total agreement there.
To judge someone a 'hero' in aviation I use these incidents as yardsticks:
1) The BOAC flight attendant who went back into the fire to try to save passengers and perished herself.
2) The bystander who jumped into the icy Potomac river to save a drowning flight attendant, while the 'first responders' stood around.
3) The Argonaut captain who managed to put it down in the only open space in Stockport.
Performances below this standard are often praiseworthy and sometimes sheer brilliance. Not heroic though.
It's a special accolade and should not be applied to every action which is just slightly beyond the expected level.
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What made the copilot sick?
this thread?
ba boom bop.
but seriously, who's from out of town?
When a very experienced pilot, in either seat puts the flaps down...does he set the handle and look out the window? or does he set the handle and watch the indicator to make sure it goes to where its supposed to. (and maybe watch the hydraulic gauge to see a bump in pressure, check the airspeed before doing anything and watch airspeed drop after the flaps come down...and and and)
now, what did the FA do?
I'm glad she had a pilot's license, and she did fine. But this whole thread is a bit off the beaten track.
(by looking out the window, I meant forgetting to monitor the flaps, not to actually see the flaps...I am sorry for the confusing phraseology)
this thread?
ba boom bop.
but seriously, who's from out of town?
When a very experienced pilot, in either seat puts the flaps down...does he set the handle and look out the window? or does he set the handle and watch the indicator to make sure it goes to where its supposed to. (and maybe watch the hydraulic gauge to see a bump in pressure, check the airspeed before doing anything and watch airspeed drop after the flaps come down...and and and)
now, what did the FA do?
I'm glad she had a pilot's license, and she did fine. But this whole thread is a bit off the beaten track.
(by looking out the window, I meant forgetting to monitor the flaps, not to actually see the flaps...I am sorry for the confusing phraseology)
Last edited by protectthehornet; 21st Jun 2010 at 14:18.