Crash at Brum
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 60
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From: Northwest England
Wedge:
I agree with you on this one. I do understand why many people get upset as sometimes journalists get it wrong, go over the top or whatever; but that is what we humans do. I have worked with a few journalists and have met a few more. They are no more or no less professional or competent in their own field than the selection of people I know in aviation.
Sad day, indeed.
ND
I agree with you on this one. I do understand why many people get upset as sometimes journalists get it wrong, go over the top or whatever; but that is what we humans do. I have worked with a few journalists and have met a few more. They are no more or no less professional or competent in their own field than the selection of people I know in aviation.
Sad day, indeed.
ND
Guest
Posts: n/a
Kalium,
What a sensetive and upstanding proffesional you are. Perhaps some of the heartless ones on here would not be so quick to post if it was someone they knew.
All the best.
The Pen is mightier than the Sword
<img src="wink.gif" border="0">
What a sensetive and upstanding proffesional you are. Perhaps some of the heartless ones on here would not be so quick to post if it was someone they knew.
All the best.
The Pen is mightier than the Sword
<img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
From: Rotterdam
I did find the latest news at <a href="http://luchtvaart.pagina.nl" target="_blank">the latest aviation news</a>
"
Bombardier says 'cooperating fully' with Birmingham crash investigators
MONTREAL (AFX) - Bombardier Inc said it is "cooperating fully" with UK and US accident investigators looking into today's crash of a Bombardier Canadair 604 aircraft at Birmingham International Airport.
The company said in a statement the plane entered service in autumn 1999 and was being operated by EPPS Aviation, based in the US.
Citing local authorities, Bombardier said two passengers and three crew died in the accident. "
Keep informed, it will be updated every 5 minutes.
"
Bombardier says 'cooperating fully' with Birmingham crash investigators
MONTREAL (AFX) - Bombardier Inc said it is "cooperating fully" with UK and US accident investigators looking into today's crash of a Bombardier Canadair 604 aircraft at Birmingham International Airport.
The company said in a statement the plane entered service in autumn 1999 and was being operated by EPPS Aviation, based in the US.
Citing local authorities, Bombardier said two passengers and three crew died in the accident. "
Keep informed, it will be updated every 5 minutes.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,367
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From: western europe
quote .....
"you can please "some of the people" all of the time ..... you can please "all of the people" some of the time .... etc etc" ......
its so true, so as far as I'm concerned, just give the people a choice ...... there's not a lot of effort involved in "powering down" a TV .....
as for media accuracy, I remember getting mad every time our local television station used "file" film of 747's when reporting on our national airline, despite the fleet having been converted to "330's" years before ...... mind you, the 74's always looked much nicer !!!!
"you can please "some of the people" all of the time ..... you can please "all of the people" some of the time .... etc etc" ......
its so true, so as far as I'm concerned, just give the people a choice ...... there's not a lot of effort involved in "powering down" a TV .....
as for media accuracy, I remember getting mad every time our local television station used "file" film of 747's when reporting on our national airline, despite the fleet having been converted to "330's" years before ...... mind you, the 74's always looked much nicer !!!!
Joined: Dec 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 1,271
Likes: 40
From: Various
Diverging left of track, I know, but..
Our ops dept didn't pass on the info about BHX being closed, despite us not even leaving the crew room before the outbound sector. About 150 miles from home, fog-outs aplenty, we contacted ops to tell them we'd go to Brum as a diversion. Imagine my suprise! Volmet still giving Brum weather and no selcal message. Not even a notam or phonecall downroute. 10 hours+ later and we managed to scrape (+40 feet and +50m RVR) in at home.
Only at times like this that we find the failings of our systems. I intend making noise about this. Like Sept 11, lets find the lessons behind the story and try to make our lives safer as a result.
My thoughts are with the families.
Blue
Our ops dept didn't pass on the info about BHX being closed, despite us not even leaving the crew room before the outbound sector. About 150 miles from home, fog-outs aplenty, we contacted ops to tell them we'd go to Brum as a diversion. Imagine my suprise! Volmet still giving Brum weather and no selcal message. Not even a notam or phonecall downroute. 10 hours+ later and we managed to scrape (+40 feet and +50m RVR) in at home.
Only at times like this that we find the failings of our systems. I intend making noise about this. Like Sept 11, lets find the lessons behind the story and try to make our lives safer as a result.
My thoughts are with the families.
Blue
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
From: Hereford, UK
I was also using Brum as a planned divert yesterday when it was closed. Why was there no mention on the various Volmets?
A quite puzzling crash. I hope it wasn't an uncommanded roll situation. All our nightmares.
PS
A quite puzzling crash. I hope it wasn't an uncommanded roll situation. All our nightmares.
PS
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 140
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From: Luton
Looks like a similar accident happened just over a year ago involving this type of aircraft.
Accident occurred Tuesday, October 10, 2000 at WICHITA, KS
Aircraft:Canadair CL600-2B16, registration: CFTBZ
Injuries: 2 Fatal, 1 Serious.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.
On October 10, 2000, at 1452 central daylight time, a Canadair Challenger 600-2B16, C-FTBZ, operated by Bombardier Incorporated, was destroyed on impact with terrain and an airport perimeter fence during initial climb from runway 19 (10,300 feet by 150 feet, dry concrete) at the Wichita Mid-Continent Airport, Wichita, Kansas. The airplane came to rest on a two-lane north-south road located along the western perimeter of the airport. The 14 CFR Part 91 test flight was not operating on a flight plan. The test flight was a Civil Aeronautics Administration flight evaluation of stick force per 'g' of the airplane as per Joint Aviation Requirement 25.143(f). The pilot and flight test engineer were fatally injured. The copilot sustained serious injuries. The flight was originating at the time of the accident.
A witness reported the following, "I looked out the right side of my vehicle, and saw an airplane (flying south), flying sideways about 6-10 ft. off of the ground. I then saw the aircraft level out, and I thought that everything was OK. I slowed down and was watching it and it tilted sideways again (right wing toward the ground). I then saw the right wing of the aircraft start to plow into the ground. I was stopped and watching the aircraft. The wing was in the ground and I saw the nose of the aircraft hit the ground, and the craft started flipping..."
Accident occurred Tuesday, October 10, 2000 at WICHITA, KS
Aircraft:Canadair CL600-2B16, registration: CFTBZ
Injuries: 2 Fatal, 1 Serious.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.
On October 10, 2000, at 1452 central daylight time, a Canadair Challenger 600-2B16, C-FTBZ, operated by Bombardier Incorporated, was destroyed on impact with terrain and an airport perimeter fence during initial climb from runway 19 (10,300 feet by 150 feet, dry concrete) at the Wichita Mid-Continent Airport, Wichita, Kansas. The airplane came to rest on a two-lane north-south road located along the western perimeter of the airport. The 14 CFR Part 91 test flight was not operating on a flight plan. The test flight was a Civil Aeronautics Administration flight evaluation of stick force per 'g' of the airplane as per Joint Aviation Requirement 25.143(f). The pilot and flight test engineer were fatally injured. The copilot sustained serious injuries. The flight was originating at the time of the accident.
A witness reported the following, "I looked out the right side of my vehicle, and saw an airplane (flying south), flying sideways about 6-10 ft. off of the ground. I then saw the aircraft level out, and I thought that everything was OK. I slowed down and was watching it and it tilted sideways again (right wing toward the ground). I then saw the right wing of the aircraft start to plow into the ground. I was stopped and watching the aircraft. The wing was in the ground and I saw the nose of the aircraft hit the ground, and the craft started flipping..."
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
From: middle england
A very tragic and sad accident. Does anyone have information as to preceding departure traffic vis a vis possible decaying wake vortices? Many of us have known near ground encounters, my worst being during flare in the A321. Not that small an a/c yet still vunerable.
My heartfelt condolences to all affected by this seemingly puzzling and unusual mishap.
My heartfelt condolences to all affected by this seemingly puzzling and unusual mishap.
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 383
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From: behind the lens
Primarily I would like to say how dignified my colleaugues have been over the past 30 or so hours. Some have had visions they never wished for and others have experienced emotions never before felt. They know who they all are.
I find some of the speculation and innuendo disheartening. Are you aviators not the first to condemn Press speculation, yet you too indulge.
Wait and see. And then let us all learn.
I find some of the speculation and innuendo disheartening. Are you aviators not the first to condemn Press speculation, yet you too indulge.
Wait and see. And then let us all learn.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
From: LGW
Such a sad event.
It's good to see that some PPrune contributors are refraining from the horrible ill informed speculation we normally see here!
Just two questions though...
(a) Why do the press allocate two sides of paper to profiles on the two pax and (in the same article) not even mention the three crew?
(b) At a time when airlines are fighting for their very survival, surely the airport could have opened the runway (not for public transport) for say a predetermined and published 30 minutes today. This would have allowed BHX based operators to at least ferry empty aircraft out of BHX and begin ops elsewhere (MAN EMA etc).
It's good to see that some PPrune contributors are refraining from the horrible ill informed speculation we normally see here!
Just two questions though...
(a) Why do the press allocate two sides of paper to profiles on the two pax and (in the same article) not even mention the three crew?
(b) At a time when airlines are fighting for their very survival, surely the airport could have opened the runway (not for public transport) for say a predetermined and published 30 minutes today. This would have allowed BHX based operators to at least ferry empty aircraft out of BHX and begin ops elsewhere (MAN EMA etc).
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: SLF
Posts: 2,222
Likes: 60
From: Anderlecht
Right on 411A!
PPIMan, if you don't like it then don't click on to this thread. Same goes for all you do goody moaners. When something in aviation happens, as an aviation professional, I immediately want to know who, where and what - and for this I come here to PPRuNe. Sure, there will be some c r a p posted , but I know that I will also get some good gen too. It's a matter of sifting through the good and the bad. If I'm watching TV and I don't like what I see, I change channel or switch it off. Same goes for PPRuNe.
PPIMan, if you don't like it then don't click on to this thread. Same goes for all you do goody moaners. When something in aviation happens, as an aviation professional, I immediately want to know who, where and what - and for this I come here to PPRuNe. Sure, there will be some c r a p posted , but I know that I will also get some good gen too. It's a matter of sifting through the good and the bad. If I'm watching TV and I don't like what I see, I change channel or switch it off. Same goes for PPRuNe.
Just a numbered other
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 1,170
Likes: 2
From: Earth
blueup,
Good point. I guess VOLMET is just that, Met. If the airport was closed for met reasons volmet would tell you, so it would be a good idea to extend the service to other closures.
In fact, with modern comms, it shouldn't be too hard to put out grouped ATIS on a common freq.
Good point. I guess VOLMET is just that, Met. If the airport was closed for met reasons volmet would tell you, so it would be a good idea to extend the service to other closures.
In fact, with modern comms, it shouldn't be too hard to put out grouped ATIS on a common freq.
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
From: South of France
Speculation achieves nothing. Why not wait until the FDR and the CVR data has been analysed.
The press do get aviation accident reports wrong in their early editions. They are not experts, let's leave it to the AAIB.
The press do get aviation accident reports wrong in their early editions. They are not experts, let's leave it to the AAIB.