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Join Date: May 2000
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Thankyou for your support Snake Hips. It's OK now,one of the other candidates on the interview list rang Hong Kong on Friday and has contacted me to say that Cathay will not tolerate any nonsense regarding the new recruits and any incidents will be viewed very seriously by the Company. There are five of us down here that WILL be attending first round interviews shortly - we won't be intimidated from now on as Cathay has assured us there full support.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Truth Seeker
Good luck. As I said, make an INFORMED decision. If you want some unbiased views
about living in HK then try and grab a beer with some ground expats (not Swires, they have a different deal). No axe to grind, you'll get an honest opinion.
Good luck. As I said, make an INFORMED decision. If you want some unbiased views
about living in HK then try and grab a beer with some ground expats (not Swires, they have a different deal). No axe to grind, you'll get an honest opinion.
Join Date: Apr 2000
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Snake,
I would have said the nightmare scenario would be one of these chartered a/c having a serious incident - statistically, not that unlikely (unfortunately).
I think heads would roll, and a lot of managers would have a hard time explaining THAT one away.
Those of you thinking of joining (even if this wasn't going on), must be absolutely out of ideas. I speak as one of the many that left over the last few years. If you think this will revive your fortunes, both financial and left-seat expectations, you have grossly failed in your research. If you have questions, feel free to e-mail me, and I will give you an un-biased (because I still wish CX well - both sides: I wish they could sort this out, it's been going on too long) run down on living expenses, time to command, etc.
I would have said the nightmare scenario would be one of these chartered a/c having a serious incident - statistically, not that unlikely (unfortunately).
I think heads would roll, and a lot of managers would have a hard time explaining THAT one away.
Those of you thinking of joining (even if this wasn't going on), must be absolutely out of ideas. I speak as one of the many that left over the last few years. If you think this will revive your fortunes, both financial and left-seat expectations, you have grossly failed in your research. If you have questions, feel free to e-mail me, and I will give you an un-biased (because I still wish CX well - both sides: I wish they could sort this out, it's been going on too long) run down on living expenses, time to command, etc.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Rraamjet
Yes agree the scenario you describe would be too awful to contemplate and bad news for everyone (i.e both sides). However, these carriers do comply with all statutory and operational requirments as laid down by the regulator (CAD) so I could see an interesting argument ensuing. Let's just hope this mess is sorted out soon.
Good to see your offer of some unbiased information to wannabees. In terms of progression you will be aware of the long term fleet growth plans?
fullforward - Fax Tony Penny 852 23506596
for details.
Cheers
Yes agree the scenario you describe would be too awful to contemplate and bad news for everyone (i.e both sides). However, these carriers do comply with all statutory and operational requirments as laid down by the regulator (CAD) so I could see an interesting argument ensuing. Let's just hope this mess is sorted out soon.
Good to see your offer of some unbiased information to wannabees. In terms of progression you will be aware of the long term fleet growth plans?
fullforward - Fax Tony Penny 852 23506596
for details.
Cheers
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LN,
As stated previously, it's early days.
Anyone who commenced upgrade since the sackings (some 2 weeks ago) would have received the offer months ago and they are IMHO entitled to the upgrade. The question of accepted/rejecting upgrades is presently meaningless. Each CX pilot is perhaps grapling with some far more basic issues.
By way of background, any management pilot brave enough to speak to a line pilot distances himself (by about a 1,000 miles) from the decision to fire 3+49 pilots. Even the DFO (Chief Pilot..kind of?) put pen to paper to explain that the utmost external pressure was placed upon CX to bring a closure to the dispute. Needless to say we are now even further from closure.
In short, it would appear that Flt Ops were caught off guard by the decision to sack and it will be sometime before they come up with a plan to make future rosters work (not that our previous rosters were that sound).
The AOA, however, expected sackings and other forms of intimidation. Prior to the vote for limited industrial action, the President of the AOA wrote to every pilot explaining his own thoughts on the consequences of a "Yes" vote. Regrettably, his predictions have been correct.
The sackings have had a profound effect upon us all. Given that many of the guys fired, their wives, kids are/were all friends, neighbours, classmates, it is hard to countenance the thought of any of us profiting by their sacking. Further, we all have been served notice that what we viewed as our "careers" with CX are just disposable 3 month contracts.
Whilst perhaps we all had our agendas (HK based/overseas based, local/expat, commuters), all now have the sole focus of continuing the pressure to get the company back to the negotiating table. The pressure will no doubt take many forms, but there is IMHO a very real and deep feeling over this matter.
It would therefore seem that this whole dispute has many more twists and turns. You simply cannot solely read Pprune and try and gauge what is going on. It has to be appreciated that the AOA has it's own secure Cpprune site and the current activity on that site would exceed the entire pprune site.
Further, the AOA has long realised that it was never going to win over the HK public, so it has preserved its resources in anticipation of a long fight. The company however, wished for a short, explosive, fight. Whilst the well prepared and funded Cx publicity machine gave us a pounding in the first fortnight, the expat press is now starting to ask some searching questions given that this dispute still bubbles along.
Nonetheless, this matter is not going to be decided by the public or the press; it's not an election; so to judge us by what you read here or in the SCMP is folly.
Anyone genuinely interested in this dispute would be wise to cast their net wide and far for information and even then keep an open mind; I know I am!
[ 23 July 2001: Message edited by: Liam Gallagher ]
As stated previously, it's early days.
Anyone who commenced upgrade since the sackings (some 2 weeks ago) would have received the offer months ago and they are IMHO entitled to the upgrade. The question of accepted/rejecting upgrades is presently meaningless. Each CX pilot is perhaps grapling with some far more basic issues.
By way of background, any management pilot brave enough to speak to a line pilot distances himself (by about a 1,000 miles) from the decision to fire 3+49 pilots. Even the DFO (Chief Pilot..kind of?) put pen to paper to explain that the utmost external pressure was placed upon CX to bring a closure to the dispute. Needless to say we are now even further from closure.
In short, it would appear that Flt Ops were caught off guard by the decision to sack and it will be sometime before they come up with a plan to make future rosters work (not that our previous rosters were that sound).
The AOA, however, expected sackings and other forms of intimidation. Prior to the vote for limited industrial action, the President of the AOA wrote to every pilot explaining his own thoughts on the consequences of a "Yes" vote. Regrettably, his predictions have been correct.
The sackings have had a profound effect upon us all. Given that many of the guys fired, their wives, kids are/were all friends, neighbours, classmates, it is hard to countenance the thought of any of us profiting by their sacking. Further, we all have been served notice that what we viewed as our "careers" with CX are just disposable 3 month contracts.
Whilst perhaps we all had our agendas (HK based/overseas based, local/expat, commuters), all now have the sole focus of continuing the pressure to get the company back to the negotiating table. The pressure will no doubt take many forms, but there is IMHO a very real and deep feeling over this matter.
It would therefore seem that this whole dispute has many more twists and turns. You simply cannot solely read Pprune and try and gauge what is going on. It has to be appreciated that the AOA has it's own secure Cpprune site and the current activity on that site would exceed the entire pprune site.
Further, the AOA has long realised that it was never going to win over the HK public, so it has preserved its resources in anticipation of a long fight. The company however, wished for a short, explosive, fight. Whilst the well prepared and funded Cx publicity machine gave us a pounding in the first fortnight, the expat press is now starting to ask some searching questions given that this dispute still bubbles along.
Nonetheless, this matter is not going to be decided by the public or the press; it's not an election; so to judge us by what you read here or in the SCMP is folly.
Anyone genuinely interested in this dispute would be wise to cast their net wide and far for information and even then keep an open mind; I know I am!
[ 23 July 2001: Message edited by: Liam Gallagher ]
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Same logic then applies to job seekers at cx many had recieved interview invites before the job action, also several had recieved job offers...so in both cases commands and interviews and new-hire classes should not be a part of the ongiongs at cx..so IFALPA is out of line putting an embargo on cx new hires...it would be just as easy for a current cx piulot to refuse to carry through with a command that was offered some time ago, as it would be for a prospective new hire to accept the offer of employment...
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
IMHO, a temporary "blanket" training "ban" on ALL training is the only FAIR solution - and a move that will enforce the point of view of ALL the pilots (to the company}.
This effectively takes "the heat" off the new hires, and the upgrades, and allows the TC's an extended training period - as required - because of outside duress.
IF CX management are willing to persist with a prolonged dispute, costing hundreds of millions of dollars from the shareholders' coffers, will only further the belief that any cry of "we cannot it!!", a hollow ring by an UNACCOUNTABLE, EXCESSIVE management!
To date, this dispute has taken MORE THAN 210 MILLION DOLLARS from the shareholders pockets, in a matter of only 20 days.....
If any employee cost their company even 1% of that figure, he would have been summarily dismissed. The current CX management has made an admirable stuff-up according to ANY figuring, as the pilots have done nothing more (or less) than to work to the exact letter of their contract.
That they CHOSE to DONATE "goodwill" to their employer previously should only be viewed in the context of "give and take"!
This effectively takes "the heat" off the new hires, and the upgrades, and allows the TC's an extended training period - as required - because of outside duress.
IF CX management are willing to persist with a prolonged dispute, costing hundreds of millions of dollars from the shareholders' coffers, will only further the belief that any cry of "we cannot it!!", a hollow ring by an UNACCOUNTABLE, EXCESSIVE management!
To date, this dispute has taken MORE THAN 210 MILLION DOLLARS from the shareholders pockets, in a matter of only 20 days.....
If any employee cost their company even 1% of that figure, he would have been summarily dismissed. The current CX management has made an admirable stuff-up according to ANY figuring, as the pilots have done nothing more (or less) than to work to the exact letter of their contract.
That they CHOSE to DONATE "goodwill" to their employer previously should only be viewed in the context of "give and take"!
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Agreed!!!!If one expects the rpospective new hires to forgo the opportunity, then opportunities inside the company should be passed up as well...my last post was in reference to an earlier one above...
Join Date: Mar 2000
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whats good for the goose is good for the gander!
i understand that the 'new' contracts and payrises are NOT compulsory. pilots must accept or refuse them by 31 july.
while a couple on this site appear bent on intimidating potential 'new hires'....you should set the example by refusing upgrades and not accepting the supposed 'imposed' payrise.
if you dont, i believe you have no right to harass those who are already involved in the interview recruitment process.
leadership starts at the top.
that said, your input on the 'state of the nations at CX' is invaluable; thanks for that and good luck, but lets keep it fair chaps.
i understand that the 'new' contracts and payrises are NOT compulsory. pilots must accept or refuse them by 31 july.
while a couple on this site appear bent on intimidating potential 'new hires'....you should set the example by refusing upgrades and not accepting the supposed 'imposed' payrise.
if you dont, i believe you have no right to harass those who are already involved in the interview recruitment process.
leadership starts at the top.
that said, your input on the 'state of the nations at CX' is invaluable; thanks for that and good luck, but lets keep it fair chaps.
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Be in no doubt, I am not aligning myself with the two contributors purporting to be CX pilots who sought to intimidate new joiners.
Frankly, this issue is not in forefront of most CX 's minds. To try and get the sacked pilots their jobs back by a recruitment/upgrade embargo is last ditch stuff. Equally, we all have received a letter from the DFO saying that whilst he cannot take action against the union leadership for inciting us to take limited industrial action, he can and, indeed will, take action against any individual who takes actions to the detriment of the company. In sum, at forefront of most guys minds are more effective and less "dangerous" ways of attaining reinstatement.
One writer has mentioned the "pay-rise". The company has done a good job on the PR. To call it a pay rise is perhaps a stretch of the English language. For the A-scalers, about 30% of the pilots, it is not a pay-rise at all as even the company admits it should be a counter-balance for the pay cut they took on the 1st July. For the Freighter guys, about 20% of the pilots, it doesn't kick in until the 1 January 2002 and co-incidences with their pay review (guess what the pay review be?). For the B-scalers, the remaining 50%, yes it is an increase in earnings. However, for everyone, it comes as part of a non-negotiated re-write to the way we are rostered and paid. The company admits we are at liberty to reject the money, however the company appears not to be offering us the right to reject the re-write as well. So in my sole and humble opinion, to turn down the money, would at this stage be somewhere between symbolic and futile.
If Ironbutt or anyone else takes issue with IFALPA, then take it up with IFALPA either through your own union or directly. If you are not satified with their response then ignore the directive. However, a word of caution, before doing so it would seem prudent to check the exact wording of any IFALPA directive (should one exist).
It is very easy to shout from the sidelines and even easier to play quarterback on Monday morning from your armchair. Keep an open mind is all I/we ask.
Frankly, this issue is not in forefront of most CX 's minds. To try and get the sacked pilots their jobs back by a recruitment/upgrade embargo is last ditch stuff. Equally, we all have received a letter from the DFO saying that whilst he cannot take action against the union leadership for inciting us to take limited industrial action, he can and, indeed will, take action against any individual who takes actions to the detriment of the company. In sum, at forefront of most guys minds are more effective and less "dangerous" ways of attaining reinstatement.
One writer has mentioned the "pay-rise". The company has done a good job on the PR. To call it a pay rise is perhaps a stretch of the English language. For the A-scalers, about 30% of the pilots, it is not a pay-rise at all as even the company admits it should be a counter-balance for the pay cut they took on the 1st July. For the Freighter guys, about 20% of the pilots, it doesn't kick in until the 1 January 2002 and co-incidences with their pay review (guess what the pay review be?). For the B-scalers, the remaining 50%, yes it is an increase in earnings. However, for everyone, it comes as part of a non-negotiated re-write to the way we are rostered and paid. The company admits we are at liberty to reject the money, however the company appears not to be offering us the right to reject the re-write as well. So in my sole and humble opinion, to turn down the money, would at this stage be somewhere between symbolic and futile.
If Ironbutt or anyone else takes issue with IFALPA, then take it up with IFALPA either through your own union or directly. If you are not satified with their response then ignore the directive. However, a word of caution, before doing so it would seem prudent to check the exact wording of any IFALPA directive (should one exist).
It is very easy to shout from the sidelines and even easier to play quarterback on Monday morning from your armchair. Keep an open mind is all I/we ask.
Grandpa Aerotart
Spoke to someone 'on the inside' today and it seems to me the AOA have the bases covered.
Stick to the plan guys....sounds like you have the very best 'adviser' available.
While the fat lady has not sung yet won't it be sweet when 411A etc have to swallow their words.
Chuck.
Stick to the plan guys....sounds like you have the very best 'adviser' available.
While the fat lady has not sung yet won't it be sweet when 411A etc have to swallow their words.
Chuck.
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Does anybody know, what happend to those 52 sacked Pilots?
I´m about to sign a contract with CX on the Freighter Fleet and getting really scared about the treatment of the pilots by the management. Is that in accordance with Hong Kong working law?
Is there a chance for the sacked Pilots to coninue with CX?
Many questions and a hard decision to be made.
I´m about to sign a contract with CX on the Freighter Fleet and getting really scared about the treatment of the pilots by the management. Is that in accordance with Hong Kong working law?
Is there a chance for the sacked Pilots to coninue with CX?
Many questions and a hard decision to be made.
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Suspect that in the end, the pilots will accept the company offered contracts and pay raise (with minor changes), much the same as the very recent Comair dispute in the USA. All this consternation and misery for what could have been accepted in the first place.
'Tis a pity that some cannot learn from the mistakes of others in the same boat.
Could be worse....OZ in '89 for example.
'Tis a pity that some cannot learn from the mistakes of others in the same boat.
Could be worse....OZ in '89 for example.
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good old kubota, nothing of any substance to post, so we call people names instead...probably come out in this one just like they did the last one...and some big talking name caller like kubota will swallow it and get on with life