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Do not seek the truth, Truth Seeker, for verily you have found it!
You say you don't hate unions now, but you seem to be a practical, ambitious, forward thinking individual (emphasis on the individual) so trust me, you will hate them soon.
If you will take the Chief Pilot job, I'll consider something in training.....
Death to collectivism...
You say you don't hate unions now, but you seem to be a practical, ambitious, forward thinking individual (emphasis on the individual) so trust me, you will hate them soon.
If you will take the Chief Pilot job, I'll consider something in training.....
Death to collectivism...
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Great Southern Land and others- if it is such a "shambles", if you hate it so much, why not bog off and let those who actually WANT to work there have a go??? CX will never be what it once was.
Onya TSI, go for it!!
Onya TSI, go for it!!
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MOR. It never ceases to amaze me how naieve and childish some peoples arguements are. You suggest that just because I am 'not happy' with the conditions anymore, I should just pack up and leave (and the REST of the 1400 pilots that feel EXACTLY that way...).
What a permanent 'gift' to management THAT would be....! How easy would it then be for the company. Whenever
the company decided the pilots were starting to earn too much.....just start 'messing them around', make them unhappy, and then, according to your 'logic', they should quit, so they can hire some cheaper replacements. I have worked 12 years for this company, and I have right to stay and fight for what I deserve, and my family deserves. I would certainly rather endure the battle and stress than walk away just for the likes of someone as immoral and naieve as you to take my job. Grow up, and realise what you are saying. You are a fool.
What a permanent 'gift' to management THAT would be....! How easy would it then be for the company. Whenever
the company decided the pilots were starting to earn too much.....just start 'messing them around', make them unhappy, and then, according to your 'logic', they should quit, so they can hire some cheaper replacements. I have worked 12 years for this company, and I have right to stay and fight for what I deserve, and my family deserves. I would certainly rather endure the battle and stress than walk away just for the likes of someone as immoral and naieve as you to take my job. Grow up, and realise what you are saying. You are a fool.
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You lot are obviously happy to work for what 'you are worth'. Sadly, you probably deserve exatly what you get. To ignore the important battle that the CX pilots are fighting, just so you can slot into thier jobs shows just how unworthy you are for ANY place in this profession. I am sure your children will be REALLY proud of you and how principled you are..... You make me sick. It is no wonder that you will spend your days at the periphery of this profession, always seen for the losers you obviously are. What sort of a world would it be if everyone behaved based on the attitudes you display. Frightening.
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What a load of bs. The only one to blame here is the HKAOA for being such weak outfit. How can you fire pilots for "sick out", "work to rule", "work slow down"? Where I come from this is illegal.
CX pilots are "not" on strike and on the same token the new hires are "not" crossing the picket line and therefore they are not "scabs". They would have been hired anyway since they were already down the so call interview pipeline. Don't direct your anger towards the new hires. Like you said; it's just bad timing. If you play the game then you have to know the rules.
I don't work for CX and have no intention to. If you want what you deserve then get a real union.
[ 21 July 2001: Message edited by: Flame Out ]
CX pilots are "not" on strike and on the same token the new hires are "not" crossing the picket line and therefore they are not "scabs". They would have been hired anyway since they were already down the so call interview pipeline. Don't direct your anger towards the new hires. Like you said; it's just bad timing. If you play the game then you have to know the rules.
I don't work for CX and have no intention to. If you want what you deserve then get a real union.
[ 21 July 2001: Message edited by: Flame Out ]
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Think they would rather moan and groan here.
And it will only get worse, suspect that the HKAOA don't have a prayer.
The HKG law will see to that.
Got that PR machine oiled up yet guys?
Have been watching the SCMP, not a page one story there.
And it will only get worse, suspect that the HKAOA don't have a prayer.
The HKG law will see to that.
Got that PR machine oiled up yet guys?
Have been watching the SCMP, not a page one story there.
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cxwannabe & co
Can you confirm that the 52 pilot positions have not been filled by pilots from within Cx ie:natural seniority progression?
If the positions are still vacant because the pilots have refused to upgrade in protest over their sacked co-workers.Then I believe you have a valid argument,and therefore wish all the Cx pilots every success with the industrial action.
If on the other hand, the positions have been filled internally then by definition, you are a hypocrite's and basically full of BS.
I think it is a bit rich to threaten pilots who haven't even started with Cx,have no connection with the dispute and have probably been waiting for the oportunity for years. If they started hiring direct entry Capt's & FO's then,I believe you still have a valid argument. Personally I don't think hiring SO's at the bottom end is going to have much effect either way.
[ 21 July 2001: Message edited by: E.K.G ]
Can you confirm that the 52 pilot positions have not been filled by pilots from within Cx ie:natural seniority progression?
If the positions are still vacant because the pilots have refused to upgrade in protest over their sacked co-workers.Then I believe you have a valid argument,and therefore wish all the Cx pilots every success with the industrial action.
If on the other hand, the positions have been filled internally then by definition, you are a hypocrite's and basically full of BS.
I think it is a bit rich to threaten pilots who haven't even started with Cx,have no connection with the dispute and have probably been waiting for the oportunity for years. If they started hiring direct entry Capt's & FO's then,I believe you still have a valid argument. Personally I don't think hiring SO's at the bottom end is going to have much effect either way.
[ 21 July 2001: Message edited by: E.K.G ]
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I would not hold out hope for the re-employment of the 52+ pilots that have been terminated. Knowing the Asian culture, reference loss of face, they will close the airline down and re employ from scratch rather than submit to more conditions from the AOA.
I do sympathise with Truth Seeker's plight and condemn the threats made to him by The Resistance and others. No one has the right to prevent a pilot pursuing his chosen career with the airline he chooses. I flew with many Australian pilots during my time with SQ and a majority were dissatisfied by the way the dispute was handled by their union. The resignation saga was particularly poor from an industrial point of view and there were a number of "office bearers" in the union that went back and signed individual contracts. Many junior pilots were left out of the industry forever as a result of this.
EKG is correct - Second Officers joining at the bottom of the list will make little difference to the outcome of this ego war between a petulant management and a group of highly paid and privileged professionals.
[ 21 July 2001: Message edited by: Classic Dick ]
I do sympathise with Truth Seeker's plight and condemn the threats made to him by The Resistance and others. No one has the right to prevent a pilot pursuing his chosen career with the airline he chooses. I flew with many Australian pilots during my time with SQ and a majority were dissatisfied by the way the dispute was handled by their union. The resignation saga was particularly poor from an industrial point of view and there were a number of "office bearers" in the union that went back and signed individual contracts. Many junior pilots were left out of the industry forever as a result of this.
EKG is correct - Second Officers joining at the bottom of the list will make little difference to the outcome of this ego war between a petulant management and a group of highly paid and privileged professionals.
[ 21 July 2001: Message edited by: Classic Dick ]
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So let's hear the truth truth seeker..how many of you "united" cx pilots are refusing type or command training during this period...why is everybody unwilling to answer this question?..You're quick with the condemnation and threats to potential new hires, but do you apply the same standard to yourselves?
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This whole thread is somewhat premature.
To the best of my knowledge no upgrades have been offered as a result of the sackings. Training is already at full stretch and Management are still grappling with the idea of August's roster!
Me thinks all is not well in the rarified atmosphere of CX City.
To the best of my knowledge no upgrades have been offered as a result of the sackings. Training is already at full stretch and Management are still grappling with the idea of August's roster!
Me thinks all is not well in the rarified atmosphere of CX City.
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The Resistance
In fact, it is you who are the fool.
First, you try and tell me that you speak for 1400 pilots, which I don't believe for a minute. You speak for your own self-interest.
I never mentioned logic, but since you have, it is completely illogical to remain in a company where your conditions are being eroded (but still better than 90% of the rest of us), and where you a plainly unhappy. You a masochist, are you? It isn't going to get any better, you know. Ask your Aussie 89 colleagues.
Irrespective of how long you have worked there, you don't have any "rights" beyond legally enforceable employment laws. You don't "deserve" anything.
The reality is that you simply don't want to wake up and face the reality of the year 2001. The colonial haven that CX once was is ancient history. You are increasingly controlled by the Chinese who would laugh at your sentiments. You are the fool, and you are living in dreamland.
I wouldn't take your job for all the tea in (mainland) China. You can keep it (what little will be left after you have all destroyed it, that is).
In the meantime, keep your moronic threats to yourself, and let others find their own way.
In fact, it is you who are the fool.
First, you try and tell me that you speak for 1400 pilots, which I don't believe for a minute. You speak for your own self-interest.
I never mentioned logic, but since you have, it is completely illogical to remain in a company where your conditions are being eroded (but still better than 90% of the rest of us), and where you a plainly unhappy. You a masochist, are you? It isn't going to get any better, you know. Ask your Aussie 89 colleagues.
Irrespective of how long you have worked there, you don't have any "rights" beyond legally enforceable employment laws. You don't "deserve" anything.
The reality is that you simply don't want to wake up and face the reality of the year 2001. The colonial haven that CX once was is ancient history. You are increasingly controlled by the Chinese who would laugh at your sentiments. You are the fool, and you are living in dreamland.
I wouldn't take your job for all the tea in (mainland) China. You can keep it (what little will be left after you have all destroyed it, that is).
In the meantime, keep your moronic threats to yourself, and let others find their own way.
short flights long nights
Can someone advise as to what is ACTUALLY happening at CX? Saw an A340 in Amsterdam today, normally a B744 destination. So aircraft are still flying, but obviously not all. What exactly is going on? and all the best to all at CX
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Things the 30-something new guys don't understand... If you are an American and make it to retirement (55) without getting sacked, you are then faced with buying your own private medical insurance. As you have not been paying into Social Security, you will get a very reduced package. You may also NOT be eligable for Medicare at 62 or 65 since you haven't been paying for that either. First year pay looks great compard to first year pay at a major, but what about 2nd year pay? What about your retirement fund? There is no 401-K sheltering as CX will not set up an approved plan with the IRS. Speaking of the IRS, CX does withhold for them, so you will be paying HK tax as well as being withheld for your US tax liability. As a US citizen, all of your HK salary, regardless of where it is earned, is taxable by the IRS. IF you spent 60 days a year in HK (and you will) you owe the SAR 15%. Think! Think! Think, before you spent 6 months in HK doing a six week conversion. Did I mention you'll get one landing a month? One free pass a year for you and your family? No jumpseat agreements? And 30 to 40 hours per month of deading around in the back (and I mean Y-class) of an airplane for no credit or overtime? Think about it. You just might want to do something else.
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These posts make interesting reading but The
Resistance and others may need to rethink their priorities in life. I will repeat the gist of my recent posting on Fragrant Harbour.
The AOA have totally underestimated the resolve of the shareholders in London and, more importantly, Beijing. This apalling error of judgement, for that is what it is, has cost 52 crew, many with families to support, their jobs. There are no circumstances under which this group will be reinstated; I am truly sorry.
CX groundstaff (the other 14,000+ guys and gals) have little or no sympathy for the plight of this group and the people of Hong Kong have even less although I doubt this is a major concern to the AOA. Local Government and the Mainland (which would have to authorize the charter aircraft) quite clearly support the management stance. As many have pointed our, labour protection laws in Hong Kong do not offer very much to employees. The constant 'this couldn't happen in North America' post is therefore irrelevant. Did Marty fully understand this?
Accept these facts and get your union to
start talking to the company again. What do you have to lose? Self respect never fed or educated a family.
To those who want to join CX, apply get interviewed and, if offered a job, make an informed decision. No one of forcing you to join, you might even like it, many of us do.
Great night life!
Resistance and the others (these are the guys often overheard in the First Class cabin plotting the downfall of the airline whilst tucking into vintage Krug and Lynch Bages). Isn't it time to make some choices? I know, because of the archaic seniority system, it is difficult to move to a similar level within another airline. There are however contract opportunities, SIA for one recently. Surely you cannot continue to stay within an organsiation whose management you despise? It cannot be good for you, all this anger. It must be time to stand back assess what is important...health, family, happiness, work?
I await the vitriol.............
Snakey
Resistance and others may need to rethink their priorities in life. I will repeat the gist of my recent posting on Fragrant Harbour.
The AOA have totally underestimated the resolve of the shareholders in London and, more importantly, Beijing. This apalling error of judgement, for that is what it is, has cost 52 crew, many with families to support, their jobs. There are no circumstances under which this group will be reinstated; I am truly sorry.
CX groundstaff (the other 14,000+ guys and gals) have little or no sympathy for the plight of this group and the people of Hong Kong have even less although I doubt this is a major concern to the AOA. Local Government and the Mainland (which would have to authorize the charter aircraft) quite clearly support the management stance. As many have pointed our, labour protection laws in Hong Kong do not offer very much to employees. The constant 'this couldn't happen in North America' post is therefore irrelevant. Did Marty fully understand this?
Accept these facts and get your union to
start talking to the company again. What do you have to lose? Self respect never fed or educated a family.
To those who want to join CX, apply get interviewed and, if offered a job, make an informed decision. No one of forcing you to join, you might even like it, many of us do.
Great night life!
Resistance and the others (these are the guys often overheard in the First Class cabin plotting the downfall of the airline whilst tucking into vintage Krug and Lynch Bages). Isn't it time to make some choices? I know, because of the archaic seniority system, it is difficult to move to a similar level within another airline. There are however contract opportunities, SIA for one recently. Surely you cannot continue to stay within an organsiation whose management you despise? It cannot be good for you, all this anger. It must be time to stand back assess what is important...health, family, happiness, work?
I await the vitriol.............
Snakey
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Snake,I detect more than touch of envy with your quip:
It is CX MANAGEMENT who made the disastrous and expensive pre-emptive STRIKE by UNNECESSARILY chartering the wet-leased aircraft - this is what is costing Cathay Pacific MEGA MILLIONS....MANAGEMENT`S FOOLISH, IRRESPONSIBLE, UNNACCOUNTABLE actions coupled with a refsal to acknowledge present world market factors, and the REAL need to FIX a problem with their crews.
Speaking with several Dragonair pax a couple of days ago, and their opinion is management of CX are deliberately attempting to bait the pilots into an all out strike to try to save face for their 10 MILLION dollar-a-day blunder (with the chartered aircraft).
How about some meaningful discussion instead of continuing down this damaging path!
[ 22 July 2001: Message edited by: Kaptin M ]
Resistance and the others (these are the guys often overheard in the First Class cabin plotting the downfall of the airline whilst tucking into vintage Krug and Lynch Bages).
Speaking with several Dragonair pax a couple of days ago, and their opinion is management of CX are deliberately attempting to bait the pilots into an all out strike to try to save face for their 10 MILLION dollar-a-day blunder (with the chartered aircraft).
How about some meaningful discussion instead of continuing down this damaging path!
[ 22 July 2001: Message edited by: Kaptin M ]
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Kaptin M
Not envy, simply a fact. By the way I think the current Lynch Bages is a tad overrated.
Actually meant to be a word of caution. Take it or leave it. Let's just say I understand several of the arch exponents of this art are no longer employed. Beware your travelling companions!
As far as 'meaningful discussion' is concerned, I had hoped to try and alert those
involved within aircrew of the level of support management enjoys from the shareholders, it is enormous. Every time I try and do this, I get shot down so I don't think I will bother any more.
As far as pre-emptive stikes are concerned, think it through. How do you think the company obtained Hong Kong Government support? Think it through Kaptin, you are not daft.
Finally don't believe all you read or all you are fed. The cost of a Chinese chartered
aircraft (which was patently surplus to their own airline's operational requirements (read cheap)) is less than you may think. Remember CX retains all the revenues from these flights. Yes the fixed costs (CX crews) still exist, but the maths are not quite as bad as portrayed. In fact, the maths get better and better the more aircraft are deployed. The nightmare scenario, downsize, rehire people who want to work for the airline etc. is highly manageable, albeit dreadfully sad.
This is not the path anyone wants.
SH
Not envy, simply a fact. By the way I think the current Lynch Bages is a tad overrated.
Actually meant to be a word of caution. Take it or leave it. Let's just say I understand several of the arch exponents of this art are no longer employed. Beware your travelling companions!
As far as 'meaningful discussion' is concerned, I had hoped to try and alert those
involved within aircrew of the level of support management enjoys from the shareholders, it is enormous. Every time I try and do this, I get shot down so I don't think I will bother any more.
As far as pre-emptive stikes are concerned, think it through. How do you think the company obtained Hong Kong Government support? Think it through Kaptin, you are not daft.
Finally don't believe all you read or all you are fed. The cost of a Chinese chartered
aircraft (which was patently surplus to their own airline's operational requirements (read cheap)) is less than you may think. Remember CX retains all the revenues from these flights. Yes the fixed costs (CX crews) still exist, but the maths are not quite as bad as portrayed. In fact, the maths get better and better the more aircraft are deployed. The nightmare scenario, downsize, rehire people who want to work for the airline etc. is highly manageable, albeit dreadfully sad.
This is not the path anyone wants.
SH
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This is a pilots forum NOT a management forum so please guys be mindful that many of the above comments are NOT pilot comments. The intent is so obvious and it is just one part of the propaganda program. Any and all means are being used by the company.
Be careful
Be careful