Ash clouds threaten air traffic
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: In the boot of my car!
Have listen to the ATC for Kestrel 952P yesterday. He reported conditions as " Serious CAVOK "despite having a serious smell of burning ash up to FL240" in " multiple layers " somewhat debunking the myth that one can maintain a visual watch. I did not garner at what level he first encountered the ash. This incident was recorded when the Ash would have been more widely dispersed than during the shutdown ( 24 hours after open ) so those who insist that the presense of ash was in fact the brainchild of a computer " gone mad " might take note. It is worthy of mention that they only had bleed problems and were concerned about pressurization with no major incident despite the RTB
None of the above is normal or standard RT Phraseology. You do not talk about "serious" CAVOK! You may talk about a serious smell of burning but unless the pilot was familiar with the smell of ash which is unlikely a smell of burning could come from another source within the aircraft. In all probability a serious smell of burning would require an immediate landing as it would be a potential emergency situation and nothing to do with whats outside the aircraft.
The pilot using the word serious attached to both sounds more like a windup a joke which does happen in the airways.
On a slightly different note smells in an aircraft can come from the ground. I can remember flying a twin prop in IMC over a biscuit factory. The delicious smell of biscuits was almost a locator of where we were as I flew that route many times
It is also worth considering that in any heightened and cautious state the mind plays tricks. fly a single over long stretches of water and its amazing how rough your engine suddenly appears to be.
Pace
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 18,575
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From: UK
For Pace and all the others who persist with this nonsense that they can 'see' this contaminant when they fly.
The only way you can 'see' it in the air is at night with a torch shone up into the sky. Try it. Over the last few days, just south of LGW, the sky was stuffed with flurries of small particles. There were slightly less last night. You are breathing them in by the million all day. They will lodge in your lungs and cannot be removed. Your engines will ingest them. Whether they are dangerous I know not, but do not be fooled by clear blue skies. Look at your car?
The only way you can 'see' it in the air is at night with a torch shone up into the sky. Try it. Over the last few days, just south of LGW, the sky was stuffed with flurries of small particles. There were slightly less last night. You are breathing them in by the million all day. They will lodge in your lungs and cannot be removed. Your engines will ingest them. Whether they are dangerous I know not, but do not be fooled by clear blue skies. Look at your car?
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 65
Likes: 1
From: Faulconbridge, New South Wales, Oz
I think asking the airlines is asking the wrong people
I can see why the questions about acceptably safe ash levels went unanswered. From the safety standpoint the manufacturers surely are the right people answer that question, NOT the operators.
The airlines can answer a lesser economic/commercial question, such as 'how much wear and inspection can you live with?'
'How much gunge is up there, what is it composed of and where is it?' is surely a question for the MET people.
'Can you accommodate routing flights around this gunge?' is a question for the Air Traffic Services people
I believe there are also questions to look at regarding pax compensation, insurance and priorities for travel.
I don't think the existing compensation rules make much sense. People who are stranded away from home clearly need compo for accomm, but people who are merely delayed in their home country probably don't. I don't see why airlines should be compensating for weather, including ash, unless there is a humanitarian need or the journey has started but hasn't been finished.
Insurance cover that's void is clearly a problem to address- otherwise people quite rightly won't buy it. We need an insurance system that's functional, then the airline funded compensation problem is a lot smaller. Actuarial and underwriting systems exist so I cannot see why we have to allow insurers to weasel out.
Finally although I'm a lucky person with a booking which replaces a kangaroo route trip scheduled for 2 days ago... I can't help thinking that slavishly honouring bookings for flights that operate at the expense of people who were unlucky enough to be on cancelled flights is a worry.
Maybe as a minimum people with good bookings could be asked if they will give them up, possibly in return for an inducement such as an upgrade or money. That way people who urgently need to travel might stand a chance of getting on, especially if they (or their insurers) are content to pay extra.
The airlines can answer a lesser economic/commercial question, such as 'how much wear and inspection can you live with?'
'How much gunge is up there, what is it composed of and where is it?' is surely a question for the MET people.
'Can you accommodate routing flights around this gunge?' is a question for the Air Traffic Services people
I believe there are also questions to look at regarding pax compensation, insurance and priorities for travel.
I don't think the existing compensation rules make much sense. People who are stranded away from home clearly need compo for accomm, but people who are merely delayed in their home country probably don't. I don't see why airlines should be compensating for weather, including ash, unless there is a humanitarian need or the journey has started but hasn't been finished.
Insurance cover that's void is clearly a problem to address- otherwise people quite rightly won't buy it. We need an insurance system that's functional, then the airline funded compensation problem is a lot smaller. Actuarial and underwriting systems exist so I cannot see why we have to allow insurers to weasel out.
Finally although I'm a lucky person with a booking which replaces a kangaroo route trip scheduled for 2 days ago... I can't help thinking that slavishly honouring bookings for flights that operate at the expense of people who were unlucky enough to be on cancelled flights is a worry.
Maybe as a minimum people with good bookings could be asked if they will give them up, possibly in return for an inducement such as an upgrade or money. That way people who urgently need to travel might stand a chance of getting on, especially if they (or their insurers) are content to pay extra.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 1
From: In the boot of my car!
BOAC
PLease read what I said. Yes you can see see particles liquid or solid in the air.
You know that.
If they are so dispersed to a very low level NO you wont see them.
That is the very arguement which opened up our airspace. At what level of density does ash cause a hazard.
That has been raised and may be raised again or lowered as more data comes in from normal operational aircraft.
Pace
PLease read what I said. Yes you can see see particles liquid or solid in the air.
You know that.
If they are so dispersed to a very low level NO you wont see them.
That is the very arguement which opened up our airspace. At what level of density does ash cause a hazard.
That has been raised and may be raised again or lowered as more data comes in from normal operational aircraft.
Pace
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 145
Likes: 0
From: England
BOAC
Over the last few days, just south of LGW, the sky was stuffed with flurries of small particles.
Regards
S
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
From: Madrid
Hi Pace,
I was referring to this the atc recording from yesterday and making no inference as to whether the pilot was being tongue in cheek with the use of the word " serious " or indeed if he was mistaken about the strong smell being that of burning ash although he clearly felt he wasnt.
edited : removed link for legal reasons.
I was referring to this the atc recording from yesterday and making no inference as to whether the pilot was being tongue in cheek with the use of the word " serious " or indeed if he was mistaken about the strong smell being that of burning ash although he clearly felt he wasnt.
edited : removed link for legal reasons.
Last edited by paidworker; 22nd April 2010 at 11:34.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 1
From: In the boot of my car!
PaidWorker
The Sun the source of all factual information
Taken from the Article dropped in the bottom as an afterthought
Pace
The Sun the source of all factual information
Taken from the Article dropped in the bottom as an afterthought
Thomas Cook said the flight was aborted as a precautionary measure because of a "minor technical fault with its air conditioning".
A spokeswoman insisted it was not caused by ash and the plane was in no danger.
A spokeswoman insisted it was not caused by ash and the plane was in no danger.
Last edited by Pace; 22nd April 2010 at 11:24.
Joined: Mar 2010
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From: L.A.
Falcon:
BUT engines that got their share of ash all over Europe either slightly before the closure or now at this time, since Monday and especially yesterday, well those motors may start to cough pretty soon..
BUT engines that got their share of ash all over Europe either slightly before the closure or now at this time, since Monday and especially yesterday, well those motors may start to cough pretty soon..
Flown 12 hours in the affected area, Tue and Wed, and the turbine blades and stators were spotless afterwards. How can zero deposits affect an engine?
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,761
Likes: 6
From: Lemonia. Best Greek in the world
Thanks to Sunfish, and Grauniad
There has been a lot of ill-considered drivel on this thread.
Thanks to Sunfish for a wise contribution.
I suspect paidworker works for her/his pay in the Belgrano and/or Montreal.
The grauniad mentionned above - here's the link.
Iceland volcano ash cloud: The full story of how the airlines won the battle for the skies | UK news | The Guardian
I normally cannot stand the Grauniad, but for once it appears to have got the story right.
As to the airlines, they have been PATHETIC. If they can't be bothered to give accurate standards to ICAO, then airspace WILL be shut down. There is no point in MOL/WW et al moaning..........it's far too late.......idiots!!
Thanks to Sunfish for a wise contribution.
I suspect paidworker works for her/his pay in the Belgrano and/or Montreal.
The grauniad mentionned above - here's the link.
Iceland volcano ash cloud: The full story of how the airlines won the battle for the skies | UK news | The Guardian
I normally cannot stand the Grauniad, but for once it appears to have got the story right.
As to the airlines, they have been PATHETIC. If they can't be bothered to give accurate standards to ICAO, then airspace WILL be shut down. There is no point in MOL/WW et al moaning..........it's far too late.......idiots!!
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 300
Likes: 0
From: Lost
What about the health of the passengers inhaling this stuff?
Are there bleed filters fitted in the Aircon systems that can stop this stuff from damaging your lungs?
I don't think HEPA filters are man enough for the job, if indeed any are fitted at all.
BR.
Are there bleed filters fitted in the Aircon systems that can stop this stuff from damaging your lungs?
I don't think HEPA filters are man enough for the job, if indeed any are fitted at all.
BR.
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
From: The Far Side
Not sure about this (last serious physics exposure A levels 1962) but is not the "visibility" of particles dependent on the wavelength of the illuminating beam. Which is why Radar is not seeing some of this stuff. If the particles are the wrong size to be illuminated in the visible light band, we will not see them, just like the radar.
The other issue is gases. The atmosphere is full of molecules that we cannot see. When volcanic sulphur compounds are present (mainly SO2) we cannot see them.
As I recall sulphur embrittlement of turbine blades used to be a serious problem years ago, when fuel content and additive contamination were the source.
The other issue is gases. The atmosphere is full of molecules that we cannot see. When volcanic sulphur compounds are present (mainly SO2) we cannot see them.
As I recall sulphur embrittlement of turbine blades used to be a serious problem years ago, when fuel content and additive contamination were the source.
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 385
Likes: 1
From: U.K.
No bleed air filters
BAD ROBOT,
Contrary to popular belief, bleed air is NOT filtered.
For information on what happens to anyone in an aircraft breathing contaminated bleed air visit Aerotoxic Association - Support for sufferers of Aerotoxic Syndrome
DB
Contrary to popular belief, bleed air is NOT filtered.
For information on what happens to anyone in an aircraft breathing contaminated bleed air visit Aerotoxic Association - Support for sufferers of Aerotoxic Syndrome
DB
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
From: Malaysia
I can see why the questions about acceptably safe ash levels went unanswered. From the safety standpoint the manufacturers surely are the right people answer that question, NOT the operators.
If the manufacturer's existing guidelines are anomalous to the operating situation(s), then operators must surely be obligated to clarify these guidelines with the engine manufacturer BEFORE they put their aircraft up.
CJ
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 65
Likes: 1
From: Faulconbridge, New South Wales, Oz
operators must comply with limitations
Indeed CJ, the operators must comply with the limitations specified by the manufacturers.
If there is an need to vary, clarify, adjust or disambiguate those limitations then the new acceptable limits must come from the manufacturer.
If there is an need to vary, clarify, adjust or disambiguate those limitations then the new acceptable limits must come from the manufacturer.
Last edited by chips_with_everything; 22nd April 2010 at 14:27. Reason: clarification
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,569
Likes: 1
From: Florida
operators must comply with limitations
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed CJ, the operators must comply with the limitations specified by the manufacturers.
If there is an need to vary, clarify, adjust or disambiguate those limitations then the new acceptable limits must come from the manufacturer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed CJ, the operators must comply with the limitations specified by the manufacturers.
If there is an need to vary, clarify, adjust or disambiguate those limitations then the new acceptable limits must come from the manufacturer
Joined: Jul 2004
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 278
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From: Europe
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 86
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From: EPWA
silverstrata:
can you pls advise how much of the said 12 hours was actually at the contaminated flight levels? 350-200-GL?
Quote:
Falcon:
BUT engines that got their share of ash all over Europe either slightly before the closure or now at this time, since Monday and especially yesterday, well those motors may start to cough pretty soon..
Flown 12 hours in the affected area, Tue and Wed, and the turbine blades and stators were spotless afterwards. How can zero deposits affect an engine?
Falcon:
BUT engines that got their share of ash all over Europe either slightly before the closure or now at this time, since Monday and especially yesterday, well those motors may start to cough pretty soon..
Flown 12 hours in the affected area, Tue and Wed, and the turbine blades and stators were spotless afterwards. How can zero deposits affect an engine?
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
From: Forest of Caledon
First the Finnish F-18s, then NATO F-16s, now RAF Typhoon.
Co-incidence? I don't think so.
The RAF has grounded all training flights (presumably excluding QRA) as a result of this 'unexpected' finding.
Co-incidence? I don't think so.
The RAF has grounded all training flights (presumably excluding QRA) as a result of this 'unexpected' finding.
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
From: Manchester
Let the Great Experiment begin...
I asked yesterday: Science before or after the CAA climbdown? The questions remain unanswered.
How have manufacturers/operators/regulators arrived at these values:
<200 = absolutely safe
200-2000 = safe but needs inspection
>2000 = unsafe?
How do operators know if they have flown through patches/pockets of ash at 200-2000 (which should trigger the special inspection regime "before and after each flight") when aircraft are not equipped with onboard sensors?
And today... what have operators done to comply to CAA’s "Revised Airspace Guidance" requiring airlines to:
· conduct their own risk assessment and develop operational procedures to address any remaining risks;
· put in place an intensive maintenance ash damage inspection before and after each flight; and
· report any ash related incidents to a reporting scheme run by the CAA?
Finally, a self-quotation also from yesterday:
How have manufacturers/operators/regulators arrived at these values:
<200 = absolutely safe
200-2000 = safe but needs inspection
>2000 = unsafe?
How do operators know if they have flown through patches/pockets of ash at 200-2000 (which should trigger the special inspection regime "before and after each flight") when aircraft are not equipped with onboard sensors?
And today... what have operators done to comply to CAA’s "Revised Airspace Guidance" requiring airlines to:
· conduct their own risk assessment and develop operational procedures to address any remaining risks;
· put in place an intensive maintenance ash damage inspection before and after each flight; and
· report any ash related incidents to a reporting scheme run by the CAA?
Finally, a self-quotation also from yesterday:
As any coal-miner will tell you: silicosis is diagnosed only after your lungs are bleeding, when you have already begun to cough and splutter, and loose your breath until your legs give way...