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Bad Airmanship

Old 30th Mar 2010, 23:44
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A Flaps Zero Landing in the RJ involves no unusual aural warnings if the checklist is completed.

Very bad day at the office for this CAP.

Did the plane fly again?
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Old 31st Mar 2010, 02:10
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Every airliner I have ever flown has a flap procedure to shut off the warning: flaps. I don't know if they completed their checklist. It probably wasn't that important. Landing gear up meant they didn't follow the landing checklist. I have been in that situation on short final. No checklist complete. All ended well but it is easy to do. I try not to repeat it.
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Old 31st Mar 2010, 03:24
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Hello all,

Quick question which I haven't seen addressed in the discussion: in the article, it sates one of the audible warnings from the EGPWS was "DISAGREE GEAR"...isn't this warning caused from a disparity in the gear position and the gear selector? If so, it would indicate the gear handle was down, but the gear remained up? Surely the authorities already checked this out, but I wonder if you could set me straight on that?

Thanks!
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Old 31st Mar 2010, 17:25
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Airmanship? You ARE joking????

SOP and "training" boxes ticked are what protects the grey men when the solid stuff hits the fan.

How dare you expect anyone to display real piloting skills, sadly that day is almost over.

"No handflying in the TMA"
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Old 31st Mar 2010, 19:26
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I think a pilot has to be aware of the meaning of AIRMANSHIP.

Airmanship represents a professional attitude and code of conduct, a personal quality to develop your judgment, discipline and control in your career.

I am certain that a good airmanship is an excellent person.

Is a bad airmanship a bad person? Ufˇˇˇ I don´t know, but he/she is a bad partner.

Thanks
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Old 31st Mar 2010, 20:05
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In the 5th paragraph of the Aviation Herald article, it claims the aircraft arrived at an airfield with the flap defect. However, no ground engineer was present to inspect the flap system, potentially identify the problem, rectify and certify maintenance??

Is the pressure that great on some crew to NOT write snags (stoppers) in the Techlog? Are some misguided into thinking they are 'helping' their employer?

As an Engineer, I am genuinely curious..

BAe
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Old 31st Mar 2010, 20:32
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BAe146s Make Me Cry writes:

Is the pressure that great on some crew to NOT write snags (stoppers) in the Techlog? Are some misguided into thinking they are 'helping' their employer?
The CIAIAC reported, that the airplane already had encountered difficulties extending the flaps in two flights earlier the day, a flapless landing had to be performed into Valladolid. The airline had no own ground engineers in Valladolid.
Apparently so.

I wonder what the insurers are going to say about this course of events.


Neptunus Rex writes:

Rottenray
Can't you count? "Too Low Flap" is three syllables
"Too Low Landing Gear" is five!
in response to

Neptunus Rex writes:

Why not change the warnings to: "Too Low, Flap" and "Too Low, Landing Gear." The disparate number of syllables should then alert the ICAO Level 2 English speaker to the imminent danger!
Remember, ICAO Level 4 is only a requirement for international flights.

I wonder if this would have helped - seems all the gear warnings are indeed the same # of syllables.
Let's see... You suggested "Too Low Landing Gear" and I remarked that all the current warnings are the same number of syllables, thus agreeing with you.

Good suggestion, although now that I'm counting syllables "too low landing gear" has the same # of syllables as "too low minimums."

There is of course a smart alek remark one might make about another's ability to read with comprehension, but I'm sure it was just an oversight...
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Old 31st Mar 2010, 22:13
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In the 5th paragraph of the Aviation Herald article, it claims the aircraft arrived at an airfield with the flap defect. However, no ground engineer was present to inspect the flap system, potentially identify the problem, rectify and certify maintenance??

Is the pressure that great on some crew to NOT write snags (stoppers) in the Techlog? Are some misguided into thinking they are 'helping' their employer?

As an Engineer, I am genuinely curious..

BAe

------------------

The reason is given later in the AV-Herald report:

"The CIAIAC found presence of water in the grease lubricating the flexible shafts transmitting the power to extend the flaps. The CIAIAC analysed, that during cruise at enroute ambient temperatures of -35 degrees C that water contamination had frozen blocking the flaps mechanism. This water contamination had not produced any problem on the ground in Valladolid, where the temperature were above freezing."

Greetings
Thomas
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Old 3rd Apr 2010, 12:03
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Exceptional error but..its the price you pay for focusing on SOP's and "rote" flying rather than airmanship and judgement.Lot of airlines want their pilots to be system operators,sticking to a structured rhythm of SOP call-outs and automated flying.Theyre the same pilots who got their licence by answering A.B.C to a 100 question paper instead of sitting before a examiner in a 4 hr tech oral.The same that engage the AP at 500 and take it out at DH + 100.The same who rely heavily on MAP mode and cant fly manually on raw data in bad weather and moderate ATC.The same who when the checklist doesnt provide an answer cant think outside the box.The same who'd probably rather dump fuel than land asap when the planes on fire.The same who think CRM equals democracy.Give the plane back to the Captain,give him/her discretion to use judgement and airmanship over tiresome procedure,and give me a "real" pilot who knows his stuff not just the company procedures.
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Old 3rd Apr 2010, 12:30
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Ranamin, perfect! totally sums up whats going wrong in the industry!
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Old 3rd Apr 2010, 12:40
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Pilot stress, fatigue, distractions

IIFD Technology is studying the blood flow in different region of the brain to identify/predict possible potential situation!
YouTube - NASA Mind-Reading Research
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Old 3rd Apr 2010, 12:45
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Thomas

Because no Licenced Aircraft Engineers were positioned at those outstations, no opportunity was available for that defect to be investigated further. Most Ground Engineers should have manufacturers servicing information such as Aircraft Maintenance Manuals, Illustrated Parts Catalogs, Fault Isolation Manuals, Wiring Diagrams etc at their disposal. Not to mention larger organisations with Maintrol support.

A quick ground test found that flap system 'serviceable'. So, why the recurrences at altitude then? How often was the defect going to exist for had the landing incident not occurred? A sheared flexi-drive? It is/was a known problem with CRJs. A qualified B1 Licenced Engineer (possibly with experience/info of that 'known problem') should have been dispatched to that aircraft to investigate that defect. At first instance preferably!

Please put all defects in the Technical Log. They will be addressed by a suitably qualified Licenced Aircraft Engineer. This is not about pure job preservation.. So, why compromise?

BAe
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Old 3rd Apr 2010, 14:28
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money

its all about money.

my huge airline use to have mechanics at each and every airport we served. From a Chicago to an Elmyra, From a New York to a Scranton.

but some money guy said: why not just have MX at the big stations/airports?

all those guys lost their jobs or had to move hundreds of miles and now...at those airports that don't have MX...we call upon the expertise of a ''contract'' mechanic. We call him off the piper he was working on to work on a boeing or a douglas.

Yeah, right.

I recall that during WW2, the bombardier was quite important to mission success on the B17's over europe. Later on , a lesser form of bombardier was trained to just toggle the bomb release switch when he saw the other bombs starting to fall. He was called a "togalier". A dumbed down bombardier.

We are dumbing down the pilot so that he can't do much of anything except press the buttons.
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Old 3rd Apr 2010, 17:10
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The 747 at MAD was the Colombian carrier AVIANCA - was used in our CRM courses at BA
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Old 4th Apr 2010, 10:52
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In most organizations, pilots can’t clear tech log entries. Did the previous crew enter the flapless landing before the crew change?
If not?
Why?
What are the legal ramifications?
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Old 4th Apr 2010, 12:01
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68+iou1

The fact that there was no ground engineer present at the first flapless landing airfield is mentioned, yet appears 'accepted'? Legal ramifications wise, it's up to the Spanish DGAC (and supposedly EASA) to enforce good oversight of all Part145 line, base and component maintenance organisations. Light-touch regulation is a common theme within many NAAs at present.

As 'Protectthehornet' mentions, most airlines need to save money. But, why at the expense of correctly required aircraft maintenance? I guess if this concern was highlighted to the respective finance directors it'd all be dismissed. I'm normally quite optimistic and hope common sense would prevail. But regarding these situations, I think there's more (and potentially worse) avoidable accidents to come unfortunately.

BAe
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Old 4th Apr 2010, 12:19
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Ranamin,
Interesting thoughts and I'm sure they're mostly valid to a degree.
Another thought though - all the incidents and accidents in my outfit (I maybe wrong) were either caused by or associated with people who ignored SOP and checklists and decided to do their own thing. I can't think of any that were caused by people blindly following procedure.
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Old 4th Apr 2010, 12:41
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Third sense

Might be time for the boffens to add more warnings to the cabin. Maybe a clamp around the FOs jewels that tightens when the ground is coming up and no dirt rollers down!!
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Old 4th Apr 2010, 14:06
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"I can't think of any that were caused by people blindly following procedure."

Probably, because when 'everyone' follows 'procedures'....then we have a situation where "you can't blame me - I followed the SOP's!"

I have to agree with other posters....what the heck ever happened to PILOTS! When the A/P is turned on at 500 AGL (or 1,000 AGL as seems to be common place now), on a long haul flight....does anyone really think that bi-annual sim assessments are enough?
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Old 5th Apr 2010, 00:43
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Smile

Policys and procedures can never replace experience and common sense.
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