JFK ATC in the news...
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It's as simple as this, cretins, how do you know the father is listening? How do you know he is ready to jump in to correct a mistake? How do you know he is feeding each transmission to his son? How do you know the father isn't answering the phone? How do you know he isn't reaching over to take a strip from the next desk? How do you know he isn't liaising with the next sector when the child makes a call. How do you know the child is a bright and responsible individual? How do you know he wouldn't transmit whilst his father is distracted? You don't, that's why you don't take instructions from a child.
FS: Apparently, the one about inciting the riot of public opinion.
The SLF crying foul over this here in the states generally tend to be the same ones who expressed disbelief that a private aircraft owner could fly 20 minutes from his home base (WITHOUT A FLIGHT PLAN, THE HORROR!) before stuffing said aircraft into an office building.
This is a PR debacle more than a safety concern, as Joe Public is becoming increasingly convinced that mad hooligans have pirated away this country's skies.
The SLF crying foul over this here in the states generally tend to be the same ones who expressed disbelief that a private aircraft owner could fly 20 minutes from his home base (WITHOUT A FLIGHT PLAN, THE HORROR!) before stuffing said aircraft into an office building.
This is a PR debacle more than a safety concern, as Joe Public is becoming increasingly convinced that mad hooligans have pirated away this country's skies.
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My reactions on hearing at least one version of the tape.
The kid obviously enjoyed it.
The pilots on the tape definitely enjoyed it.
By no stretch of my imagination can I see how safety or 'security' was compromised. My visual has an adult whispering in the kids ear and standing by with finger on a spare mike button if needed.
Kid was easier to understand than some of the 'real' controllers I've had to work with here and there.
My opinion - total non-issue. If the FAA were the exact opposite of my opinion of the way they actually are, they would suppress a smile and tell him "don't do it again without permission'.
Then they could go focus on stuff like kids who commute from California to fly from Newark in the winter with a pilot who flunked numerous check rides and spent the entire flight blabbing to her about everything except how to recover from a stall.
The kid obviously enjoyed it.
The pilots on the tape definitely enjoyed it.
By no stretch of my imagination can I see how safety or 'security' was compromised. My visual has an adult whispering in the kids ear and standing by with finger on a spare mike button if needed.
Kid was easier to understand than some of the 'real' controllers I've had to work with here and there.
My opinion - total non-issue. If the FAA were the exact opposite of my opinion of the way they actually are, they would suppress a smile and tell him "don't do it again without permission'.
Then they could go focus on stuff like kids who commute from California to fly from Newark in the winter with a pilot who flunked numerous check rides and spent the entire flight blabbing to her about everything except how to recover from a stall.
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As a pilot who operated into JFK for a few years and was actually based there for three with an American outfit the recording really made my day.
I knew many of the controllers from visiting the tower and having the odd pizza in The Owl. They were, and still are... great guys.
Let's lighten up on this. They allowed a young kid to read out a simple sentence to the amusement of the pilots on frequency.
It caused no problems and gave people something to smile about so don't let any suits try to make a big issue out of this.
I knew many of the controllers from visiting the tower and having the odd pizza in The Owl. They were, and still are... great guys.
Let's lighten up on this. They allowed a young kid to read out a simple sentence to the amusement of the pilots on frequency.
It caused no problems and gave people something to smile about so don't let any suits try to make a big issue out of this.
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This is a non event that gets blown out of proportion by the media as usual.
The clearance itself issued by the kid, or the frequency change... that's nothing to do with the safety of those actions. The safety comes from the thinking behind the clearance. And that was obviously done by the father. A synthesised voice could issue the clearance for that matter.
The problem is just one of professionalism and "etiquette". Not of safety. Also bear in mind that the father was probably plugged in via a mentor socket which automatically overrides the "trainee" one, if anything went wrong.
You could compare this to turning up at Borders and Immigration. A kid takes your passport, passes it on to his dad standing behind, he checks it and gives it back to the kid who hands it to you and lets you through.
Not a safety issue, but most people still would find this unprofessional.
Same kind of thing here at JFK I would say.
The clearance itself issued by the kid, or the frequency change... that's nothing to do with the safety of those actions. The safety comes from the thinking behind the clearance. And that was obviously done by the father. A synthesised voice could issue the clearance for that matter.
The problem is just one of professionalism and "etiquette". Not of safety. Also bear in mind that the father was probably plugged in via a mentor socket which automatically overrides the "trainee" one, if anything went wrong.
You could compare this to turning up at Borders and Immigration. A kid takes your passport, passes it on to his dad standing behind, he checks it and gives it back to the kid who hands it to you and lets you through.
Not a safety issue, but most people still would find this unprofessional.
Same kind of thing here at JFK I would say.
It's as simple as this, cretins, how do you know the father is listening? How do you know he is ready to jump in to correct a mistake? How do you know he is feeding each transmission to his son? How do you know the father isn't answering the phone? How do you know he isn't reaching over to take a strip from the next desk? How do you know he isn't liaising with the next sector when the child makes a call. How do you know the child is a bright and responsible individual? How do you know he wouldn't transmit whilst his father is distracted? You don't, that's why you don't take instructions from a child.
How do I know? If you have to ask - you only show that you DON'T know, and thus aren't qualified to comment.
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This was great! I really feel sorry for the controller if he loses his job over this. Like others have said, he was in control the whole time and at no point was there a safety issue.
May have even made the day of a pilot having an otherwise sh*t day.
Getting so sick of damn do-gooders in this world. Be it the ones who feel its their duty to ban "offensive" ads on behalf of the rest of us by picking up their typewriters and typing a "Dear Sir", or the old farts on here getting their knickers in a knot over a bit of harmless fun.
May have even made the day of a pilot having an otherwise sh*t day.
Getting so sick of damn do-gooders in this world. Be it the ones who feel its their duty to ban "offensive" ads on behalf of the rest of us by picking up their typewriters and typing a "Dear Sir", or the old farts on here getting their knickers in a knot over a bit of harmless fun.
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Wow, talk about over-reaction, I can't see any problem with this at all. He was supervised, it was obviously quiet and I bet he got a real buzz out of it. Plus in my experience when the 'normal' ATC chatter breaks down every now and then often someone will make a 'whitty' comment over the radio that gives everyone a bit of a break and a giggle. We need it every now and then!! I have had cabin crew on the flight deck and allowed them to make radio transmissions if they really want too, one ATC at Heathrow got quite a shock when his 'girlfriend' replied to a frequency change instruction, it made his day, made her day and no harm done. Everyone needs to chill out.
Just Browsing, you show a remarkable lack of aviation knowledge. So much so that I seriously doubt you hold an ATPL and that you are an A319 captain. Well, at least not here on Earth.
avman.
the faa states that only licensed controllers are supposed to communicate with aircraft, this behavior is not acceptable and is not professional.
when i go flying i expect to be flown by professional pilots and controlled by professional atc not by children.
i guess this makes me and the faa a load of new world retards.
the faa states that only licensed controllers are supposed to communicate with aircraft, this behavior is not acceptable and is not professional.
when i go flying i expect to be flown by professional pilots and controlled by professional atc not by children.
i guess this makes me and the faa a load of new world retards.
None of those flights were controlled or flown by children. The kid actually did a better job than many worthless affirmative action trainees that were passed off as "qualified" and worked without supervision.
This is a perfect case where outsiders should be told to F$%* O#$, stay out of our world.
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Initially I felt that it was an overreaction to a non-event, but as someone else said earlier in the thread, 'how would you feel if this was the guy's spouse / brother / friend instead of his child ?' That's a good point.
Whilst I sympathise with the ATCO who is going to get the bullet, I have to say that he brought it on himself. You have to have rules, and rules have to be followed - moreso in safety critical areas like aviation. They can't do anything but come down hard on him. If the incident passed without repercussion, it's logical to assume it would be repeated - if not by this particular chap. Allowing anyone other than qualified ATCOs to issue instructions to aircrews cannot be tolerated - not because of the risk, or lack of, in individual scenarios, but because of the need for a clearly defined policy that everyone understands and no-one breaks.
I believe this chap isn't guilty of putting any flights at risk by allowing his kid on the RT, but he is guilty of being an idiot for thinking nobody would raise an eyebrow.
Whilst I sympathise with the ATCO who is going to get the bullet, I have to say that he brought it on himself. You have to have rules, and rules have to be followed - moreso in safety critical areas like aviation. They can't do anything but come down hard on him. If the incident passed without repercussion, it's logical to assume it would be repeated - if not by this particular chap. Allowing anyone other than qualified ATCOs to issue instructions to aircrews cannot be tolerated - not because of the risk, or lack of, in individual scenarios, but because of the need for a clearly defined policy that everyone understands and no-one breaks.
I believe this chap isn't guilty of putting any flights at risk by allowing his kid on the RT, but he is guilty of being an idiot for thinking nobody would raise an eyebrow.
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The problem is that even if the kid had started joking around over the radio, the pilot is forced to do exactly what he says. Besides, it's not like the father who was sitting right next to him could do anything at all. What was he gonna do? Overpower a child? That's impossible. He couldn't have radioed the plane again either, since the signal terminates after the pilot's gotten his orders, so basically all the passengers survived solely because the kid didn't say anything stupid like "crash into a building".
They can't do anything but come down hard on him. If the incident passed without repercussion, it's logical to assume it would be repeated - if not by this particular chap.
You don't trash an expensively licensed person for something like this. Well YOU might (which is why you aren't a manager!
) The investigation will (in all probability) read "Operator suspended during investigation. (Normal, and good safety practice as the person under investigation is always under stress. Suspending them from duty removes the organisation from suspicion of forcing a controller to operate under stress, and makes them available for interview without delaying the investigation.) Investigation determined operations never occurred without a licensed ATC operator online. An unlicensed person made five radio transmissions, while supervised, which was in accordance with training practices. (although this instance was outside of the training programme, and was unauthorised in this instance.) Operators have been briefed on correct practices. Case Closed. Operators re-instated."
The problem is that even if the kid had started joking around over the radio, the pilot is forced to do exactly what he says.
... if any proof were needed that trolls are on PPRuNe! ..
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He couldn't have radioed the plane again either, since the signal terminates after the pilot's gotten his orders