Landing when the airport is closed
Sounds like Bermuda was up to its usual weather trick, always was a bl**dy confidence trick in my opinion.
Landed once in similar conditions with horizontal rain, local manager got on the PA and 'apologised' for the 'unusual' weather conditions. Local engineer muttered 'bl**dy liar, been like this for a week and no improvement forcast', remained like that for all of our 'slip' - meant we had to spend our time in The Horse and Buggy Tavern ! ( not within 12 hours of flying, of course ! )
Not an uncommon experience. Attitude of local hotels to crew left much to be desired, too. We provided their bread and butter in the Winter, but they conveniently forgot that on the rare Sunny days.
Don't miss the place.
Landed once in similar conditions with horizontal rain, local manager got on the PA and 'apologised' for the 'unusual' weather conditions. Local engineer muttered 'bl**dy liar, been like this for a week and no improvement forcast', remained like that for all of our 'slip' - meant we had to spend our time in The Horse and Buggy Tavern ! ( not within 12 hours of flying, of course ! )
Not an uncommon experience. Attitude of local hotels to crew left much to be desired, too. We provided their bread and butter in the Winter, but they conveniently forgot that on the rare Sunny days.
Don't miss the place.
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55kts ???
Well, For an An 12, that is like a garden variety landing ..
Once I saw a AN 12 coasting in, when everybody else diverted, with zero visibility and wind that was pulling palm trees to near ground level ..
Well, For an An 12, that is like a garden variety landing ..
Once I saw a AN 12 coasting in, when everybody else diverted, with zero visibility and wind that was pulling palm trees to near ground level ..
I was at the closing day of Farnborough (early 70s I think) when an An-22 landed late in the afternoon with a bit of a side breeze and touched down with 1 set of mains on the tarmac and amid a huge dust cloud the other set on the grass. I wasn't sure whether to have respect or express horror.
Last edited by Dave Gittins; 18th Feb 2010 at 08:23. Reason: carp spelling
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Yeah well...
"There are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there are no old, bold pilots!"
Just check the accident stats for Africa to see how often this kind of stuff ends in tears!
You have one situation where ATC declares that the airport is closed and a very different one where the ATC facility is closed, when you simply have no ATC. I think it might get a bit troublesome to land at a closed airport but I have to guess at that, never having done it.
As pointed out, with no tower in operation you close with your enroute control facility and then make your own way in on arrival or depart and contact ATC for a clearance into controlled airspace. Both of these are fairly routine events in the Third World and not unheard-of in the States, for instance, when you either cancel your IFR flight plan airborne or else report after landing on arrival at an uncontrolled destination.
One obvious problem is that many countries have a ban on night VFR, so that there's no way to make a night flight to a VFR destination even if you have runway lighting. You have to be careful to make local sunset time to stay out of trouble in some cases, because that is when VFR ends. Same on departure, when you can see perfectly well but if the sun is not officially risen then "You got some 'splainin' to do!" Most GPS units nowadays can give you these times and a sharp pencil with a tame FO on its other end can be your friend.
You can depart with an IFR void time or else call ATC when airborne. In fact, I had to do this on my IFR checkride out of Cranfield, UK, not so long ago. They had a rather elaborate route mapped out that kept us out of controlled airspace until we could get an IFR clearance into the London TMA.
Just check the accident stats for Africa to see how often this kind of stuff ends in tears!
You have one situation where ATC declares that the airport is closed and a very different one where the ATC facility is closed, when you simply have no ATC. I think it might get a bit troublesome to land at a closed airport but I have to guess at that, never having done it.
As pointed out, with no tower in operation you close with your enroute control facility and then make your own way in on arrival or depart and contact ATC for a clearance into controlled airspace. Both of these are fairly routine events in the Third World and not unheard-of in the States, for instance, when you either cancel your IFR flight plan airborne or else report after landing on arrival at an uncontrolled destination.
One obvious problem is that many countries have a ban on night VFR, so that there's no way to make a night flight to a VFR destination even if you have runway lighting. You have to be careful to make local sunset time to stay out of trouble in some cases, because that is when VFR ends. Same on departure, when you can see perfectly well but if the sun is not officially risen then "You got some 'splainin' to do!" Most GPS units nowadays can give you these times and a sharp pencil with a tame FO on its other end can be your friend.
You can depart with an IFR void time or else call ATC when airborne. In fact, I had to do this on my IFR checkride out of Cranfield, UK, not so long ago. They had a rather elaborate route mapped out that kept us out of controlled airspace until we could get an IFR clearance into the London TMA.
I had it in my mind that ATC cannot actually close an airfield.
They can advise you that they are not accepting any traffic and that landing at their airfield might be extremely ill-advised, but, if you decide that you are going to land anyway, then there is not a damned thing they can do about it. They can switch off the lights (if they feel really confident that they are not going to be screwed in a big way for so doing at the subsequent Board of Inquiry) and then go home in a fit of picque, but they cannot stop you from physically landing.
For what it is worth, I have "arrived" in Bermuda on many occasions whilst driving one of Mrs Windsor's Short Belfasts (similar - but a little bit larger than an AN-12) and I never liked the place either.
Give me Gander or Goose every day!
They can advise you that they are not accepting any traffic and that landing at their airfield might be extremely ill-advised, but, if you decide that you are going to land anyway, then there is not a damned thing they can do about it. They can switch off the lights (if they feel really confident that they are not going to be screwed in a big way for so doing at the subsequent Board of Inquiry) and then go home in a fit of picque, but they cannot stop you from physically landing.
For what it is worth, I have "arrived" in Bermuda on many occasions whilst driving one of Mrs Windsor's Short Belfasts (similar - but a little bit larger than an AN-12) and I never liked the place either.
Give me Gander or Goose every day!
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You might want to check that...
How about an "approach ban" when ATC tell you that the viz is below minimums? You can still shoot the approach and land but I think you will have some 'splainin' to do afterwards.
When you and all around you are in deep sh*t, who gives a monkey's toss aout having "to do some explaining afterwards".
This sort of rubbish reminds me of the gentleman who got me into flying in the first place over half a century ago.
He said to me one day "I don't really mind dying but I would hate to lose my licence"!
PS There was no such thing in the UK as an approach ban until Ariana Afghan entered the ground at speed at Gatwick with a 727 on finals (if you will forgive the pun) to the westerly runway.
This sort of rubbish reminds me of the gentleman who got me into flying in the first place over half a century ago.
He said to me one day "I don't really mind dying but I would hate to lose my licence"!
PS There was no such thing in the UK as an approach ban until Ariana Afghan entered the ground at speed at Gatwick with a 727 on finals (if you will forgive the pun) to the westerly runway.
Just to recap, as I started this thread, the crew landed at an international airport that the area controller had said was closed. At no time did the crew give ANY indication that they had a problem. In fact it was difficult to tell if the fact that their destination was closed was even registering. Given the exasperation in the controller's voice I would think that they were thinking something similar.
Had the aeroplane slid off the runway, sideways, and caught fire then maybe they would have been on their own (airport closed therefore no ATC and no fire/rescue services). It's just speculation of course but the NY controller did stress that any landing was entirely at the crews' risk.
Some of you have said that landings at closed airports are common in your neck of the woods but in my (public transport) experience that is not an option. However, there are situations where you can throw the rule book out of the window but they would be accompanied by a PAN, or more likely, a Mayday call to justify doing so.
Had the aeroplane slid off the runway, sideways, and caught fire then maybe they would have been on their own (airport closed therefore no ATC and no fire/rescue services). It's just speculation of course but the NY controller did stress that any landing was entirely at the crews' risk.
Some of you have said that landings at closed airports are common in your neck of the woods but in my (public transport) experience that is not an option. However, there are situations where you can throw the rule book out of the window but they would be accompanied by a PAN, or more likely, a Mayday call to justify doing so.
BBK
As some of us said, landing at "closed" airports isn't that uncommon outside of the very controlled and sterile airline environment.
Here is the relevant Jepp airport report:
Lighting is also pilot controlled
Clearly, ops are anticipated during non-operating hours; customs and immigration are also available during off-hours.
GF
As some of us said, landing at "closed" airports isn't that uncommon outside of the very controlled and sterile airline environment.
Here is the relevant Jepp airport report:
Open from 0700L-2300L,
* During off hours, ground, ATC, and fire and rescue are not available, aircraft ops at your own risk.
* During off hours, ground, ATC, and fire and rescue are not available, aircraft ops at your own risk.
Lights: RDO-CTL
WHEN ATCT CLSD, ACTVT MIRL RY 12/30, PAPI RYS 12 & 30, REIL RY 12, SALS RY 12 & ALSF-1 RY 30 - 122.8
WHEN ATCT CLSD, ACTVT MIRL RY 12/30, PAPI RYS 12 & 30, REIL RY 12, SALS RY 12 & ALSF-1 RY 30 - 122.8
GF
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2nd page and I don't see the most important question - since when does ATC decide whether wind is acceptable or not?
Ad closed due to wind is utter nonsense. While it's possible for a duty officer to close the AD if the runways can't be maintained, but due to winds? and by ATC? If that's true, than it really makes no sense. I hope it's just a misunderstanding, and NY stated that just ATC would not be available, and adding wind conditions, and afterwards it got mixed.
Ad closed due to wind is utter nonsense. While it's possible for a duty officer to close the AD if the runways can't be maintained, but due to winds? and by ATC? If that's true, than it really makes no sense. I hope it's just a misunderstanding, and NY stated that just ATC would not be available, and adding wind conditions, and afterwards it got mixed.
GF
Point taken but I was trying to say that the airport was closed presumably because of the storm as opposed to just being out of hours.
Criss
I imagine that the decision to close the airport was taken locally by Bermuda ATC given their local considerations not New York who control the oceanic area around it. What was not clear is whether the tower was manned or not. For example, when LGW closed recently because of the snow then full ATC was maintained but the runways were closed.
Point taken but I was trying to say that the airport was closed presumably because of the storm as opposed to just being out of hours.
Criss
I imagine that the decision to close the airport was taken locally by Bermuda ATC given their local considerations not New York who control the oceanic area around it. What was not clear is whether the tower was manned or not. For example, when LGW closed recently because of the snow then full ATC was maintained but the runways were closed.
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galaxy flyer....absolutely!
My recolections of a flight many years ago in the north of England (very close to a city named MANCHESTER).
The conversation went something like this:
Me: "Request joininhg Instructions"
Them: "We are closed - you can't land"
Me: "I have to land, my navlights are not working and it's dark up here"
Them: "You can't land - we're closed"
Me: "I'm landing anyway - give me a clue as to which runway to use."
Them: No, you can't land, we are closed.
Me: Watch this!
Them: "We will report you"
Me: "Please note the quality of my landing in your report"
After landing they refused to give taxi instructions!
My recolections of a flight many years ago in the north of England (very close to a city named MANCHESTER).
The conversation went something like this:
Me: "Request joininhg Instructions"
Them: "We are closed - you can't land"
Me: "I have to land, my navlights are not working and it's dark up here"
Them: "You can't land - we're closed"
Me: "I'm landing anyway - give me a clue as to which runway to use."
Them: No, you can't land, we are closed.
Me: Watch this!
Them: "We will report you"
Me: "Please note the quality of my landing in your report"
After landing they refused to give taxi instructions!
No one seems to have questioned this crews motives for their actions , and as two posters at elast have commented Bermuda International ,Kindley Field is pretty scary in bad weather because of the runway orientation and local terrain and the likelhood of extremely heavy driving rain in windy conditions. Its very close to sea level-literally and the approach roads are even closer -like 3-4 feet above sea level so it can be inaccessable for ATC people firecrws,. fuellers etc in these conditions.
I am sure the reason it has published arrangments for out of hours landings is because in practical terms for an aircraft low on fuel or serious tech problem there is no alternative to laning there as the next runway is 700 miles away probablyagainsta serious headwind.
I would have thought the bigger issue was hw did this plane get itself into a situation where it had to land in spite of ATC warnings and very poor weather and toa humble pax like me it suggests they might not have had ebough fuel to make the trnasatlantic crossing. When I lived there many turbo prop transports-mostly c130 variants fuel stopped but I am sure the USAF. RAF and others planned the trip so that if BDA was closed they have somewhere else to go because they knew BDA in winter can be very tricky indeed and even without the airport closing US originated flights to the island quite often had to turn back to the US and the BA London BDA flights had to divert to the East Coast. So did these guys just not load enough fuel or a diversion or maybe the AN12 cannot make it all the way across wihout a stop?
I am sure the reason it has published arrangments for out of hours landings is because in practical terms for an aircraft low on fuel or serious tech problem there is no alternative to laning there as the next runway is 700 miles away probablyagainsta serious headwind.
I would have thought the bigger issue was hw did this plane get itself into a situation where it had to land in spite of ATC warnings and very poor weather and toa humble pax like me it suggests they might not have had ebough fuel to make the trnasatlantic crossing. When I lived there many turbo prop transports-mostly c130 variants fuel stopped but I am sure the USAF. RAF and others planned the trip so that if BDA was closed they have somewhere else to go because they knew BDA in winter can be very tricky indeed and even without the airport closing US originated flights to the island quite often had to turn back to the US and the BA London BDA flights had to divert to the East Coast. So did these guys just not load enough fuel or a diversion or maybe the AN12 cannot make it all the way across wihout a stop?
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I think it depends very much on what you can get away with, when that depends on where you are and sometimes who your "friends" are!
I am not an aviation lawyer and mostly a bush pilot so that I stand to be corrected on this one but:
There really is such a thing as an "approach ban," imposed for visibility below the required minimums for a specific approach. This can get so involved, when it can depend on where you are on the approach when you are informed of the weather so that beyond a certain point you just press on if you like but short of that point you are "banned" from legally shooting the approach. This must be where declaring an emergency comes into it?
At the other extreme there are many VFR-only airfields which people operate to every day under Special VFR, even when the birds are walking. Okay, one uses the FMS to shoot what looks for all the world like a normal ILS approach, except that the course guidance is in magenta instead of green but that has no legal standing. It is just something that "everyone does" and will continue to do until some optimistic fool pushes a bit too hard and finds an iroko tree instead of the runway threshold. Those who have a problem with this self-select out and go home to somewhere they only have to operate legally, leaving the cowboys to get on with this.
If that Antonov driver had dinged in there, landing in extreme weather on Bermuda, it would have meant a bit of a fuss until the legalities were made plain, when it would have been the Captain's fault for pressing on, probably due to low fuel state, something clearly illegal. As it was he got away with that so, "no basic problem."
How are you going to carry much revenue load to Bermuda with IFR reserves if the alternate is 700 miles off? Nah, 30 minutes extra fuel... Sorted! You get there, you land, period! You no like, back to Siberia with you! Me, strong like bull!
My very first "airline" job was as an FO on a Twin Otter. We were operating to Hilton Head, South Carolina following the rules, only going below the Minimum Enroute Altitude when we were in VMC, since Hilton Head was VFR-only. We had a competitor flying a Navajo Chieftain who would just tell Center "We are now cancelling IFR," and descend VFR in IMC to make his trip when we, just a few miles off, could only see the wingtips on our Twotter so that we would take our load of unhappy punters off to IFR Savannah, Georgia until Hilton Head really did have VMC.
Everyone knew this operator was cheating but how to prove that? It's pretty flat down there so that cheating in that way wasn't exactly unsafe, just flat illegal so that I guess the local FAA office had bigger fish to fry.
I went on to bigger and better things from that, including seeing a head-of-state GV making one totally hairy VFR in IMC approach down in the Niger Delta. We did that but we knew what we were doing; these guys were just making it up as they went along, I guess, so that we saw them make their cloud-break in a somewhat unusual attitude that then called for an unstabilised approach. If they had stacked it with the Prez onboard there would have been the most unholy witch-hunt ever but they got away with it so that "business as usual" just carried on with no lessons learnt. Still going on, in fact...
I am not an aviation lawyer and mostly a bush pilot so that I stand to be corrected on this one but:
There really is such a thing as an "approach ban," imposed for visibility below the required minimums for a specific approach. This can get so involved, when it can depend on where you are on the approach when you are informed of the weather so that beyond a certain point you just press on if you like but short of that point you are "banned" from legally shooting the approach. This must be where declaring an emergency comes into it?
At the other extreme there are many VFR-only airfields which people operate to every day under Special VFR, even when the birds are walking. Okay, one uses the FMS to shoot what looks for all the world like a normal ILS approach, except that the course guidance is in magenta instead of green but that has no legal standing. It is just something that "everyone does" and will continue to do until some optimistic fool pushes a bit too hard and finds an iroko tree instead of the runway threshold. Those who have a problem with this self-select out and go home to somewhere they only have to operate legally, leaving the cowboys to get on with this.
If that Antonov driver had dinged in there, landing in extreme weather on Bermuda, it would have meant a bit of a fuss until the legalities were made plain, when it would have been the Captain's fault for pressing on, probably due to low fuel state, something clearly illegal. As it was he got away with that so, "no basic problem."
How are you going to carry much revenue load to Bermuda with IFR reserves if the alternate is 700 miles off? Nah, 30 minutes extra fuel... Sorted! You get there, you land, period! You no like, back to Siberia with you! Me, strong like bull!
My very first "airline" job was as an FO on a Twin Otter. We were operating to Hilton Head, South Carolina following the rules, only going below the Minimum Enroute Altitude when we were in VMC, since Hilton Head was VFR-only. We had a competitor flying a Navajo Chieftain who would just tell Center "We are now cancelling IFR," and descend VFR in IMC to make his trip when we, just a few miles off, could only see the wingtips on our Twotter so that we would take our load of unhappy punters off to IFR Savannah, Georgia until Hilton Head really did have VMC.
Everyone knew this operator was cheating but how to prove that? It's pretty flat down there so that cheating in that way wasn't exactly unsafe, just flat illegal so that I guess the local FAA office had bigger fish to fry.
I went on to bigger and better things from that, including seeing a head-of-state GV making one totally hairy VFR in IMC approach down in the Niger Delta. We did that but we knew what we were doing; these guys were just making it up as they went along, I guess, so that we saw them make their cloud-break in a somewhat unusual attitude that then called for an unstabilised approach. If they had stacked it with the Prez onboard there would have been the most unholy witch-hunt ever but they got away with it so that "business as usual" just carried on with no lessons learnt. Still going on, in fact...
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Some facts
This aircraft departed from its destination (where fuel was unavailable) to return to Bermuda with zero planned alternate fuel. Fuel on board was about one third of total capacity.
It overflew three major international airports en-route, but did not consider landing to uplift fuel to facilitate a possible diversion.
No attempt was made to obtain an update for Bermuda forecast. The weather info that the crew had indicated x-wind outside AFM limits.
How smart is that?
Airfield closed due forecast hurricane strength winds.
If he had crashed on the runway, he would have isolated the island as Bermuda has only one airfield with a single runway. It would have taken ages to clear the runway, and any investigation team (UK AAIB or NTSB) would have to been shipped in or on a military STOL aircraft.
Overall ~ stupidity and inconsideration ruled.
It overflew three major international airports en-route, but did not consider landing to uplift fuel to facilitate a possible diversion.
No attempt was made to obtain an update for Bermuda forecast. The weather info that the crew had indicated x-wind outside AFM limits.
How smart is that?
Airfield closed due forecast hurricane strength winds.
If he had crashed on the runway, he would have isolated the island as Bermuda has only one airfield with a single runway. It would have taken ages to clear the runway, and any investigation team (UK AAIB or NTSB) would have to been shipped in or on a military STOL aircraft.
Overall ~ stupidity and inconsideration ruled.
ExByMan
Do you have facts not in evidence on this incident? What three international airports did overfly? Bermuda is a pretty remote island, where are those fields and where did he originate? I agree, it seems like a pretty dodgy operation, but when have the Russians not been pretty dodgy?
Approach bans are for the operator to observe, not an ATC function. I believe even if the weather is below limits, ATC would give an approach clearance with a report to the authorities of the violation.
My comments were directed at the fact there is a difference between "closed" and "non-operating hours".
GF
Do you have facts not in evidence on this incident? What three international airports did overfly? Bermuda is a pretty remote island, where are those fields and where did he originate? I agree, it seems like a pretty dodgy operation, but when have the Russians not been pretty dodgy?
Approach bans are for the operator to observe, not an ATC function. I believe even if the weather is below limits, ATC would give an approach clearance with a report to the authorities of the violation.
My comments were directed at the fact there is a difference between "closed" and "non-operating hours".
GF
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Originally Posted by clivewatson
My recolections of a flight many years ago in the north of England (very close to a city named MANCHESTER).
The conversation went something like this:
Me: "Request joininhg Instructions"
Them: "We are closed - you can't land"
Me: "I have to land, my navlights are not working and it's dark up here"
Them: "You can't land - we're closed"
Me: "I'm landing anyway - give me a clue as to which runway to use."
Them: No, you can't land, we are closed.
Me: Watch this!
Them: "We will report you"
Me: "Please note the quality of my landing in your report"
After landing they refused to give taxi instructions!
The conversation went something like this:
Me: "Request joininhg Instructions"
Them: "We are closed - you can't land"
Me: "I have to land, my navlights are not working and it's dark up here"
Them: "You can't land - we're closed"
Me: "I'm landing anyway - give me a clue as to which runway to use."
Them: No, you can't land, we are closed.
Me: Watch this!
Them: "We will report you"
Me: "Please note the quality of my landing in your report"
After landing they refused to give taxi instructions!
Yeah....a lovely "Cherry"..
AIRFRAMES.ORG - Aircraft Database - airline MEM fleet
Some years ago a AN12 also from an Eastern Operator flying on behalf of Portuguese Postal Services on a flight to Lajes just returned to Lisbon across middle way, because the crew simply realized they didnt have any Charts of Lajes...Yuuppiii
AIRFRAMES.ORG - Aircraft Database - airline MEM fleet
Some years ago a AN12 also from an Eastern Operator flying on behalf of Portuguese Postal Services on a flight to Lajes just returned to Lisbon across middle way, because the crew simply realized they didnt have any Charts of Lajes...Yuuppiii