Lufthansa Pilots to ballot on strike action
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EAM could you please answer to this question if you know it?
"...Sorry..What does it mean about LHI "..but has to apply normal Lufthansa selection standards.."???..The selection have always been based on the Lufthansa classic scheme as:
1) DLR in Hamburg
2)Simulator for basic IFR and CRM
3)FQ in Hamburg
4)Final interview in Hamburg
5)Medical in Frankfurt
Is there anything else than this?All my collegues working in DLH they went through this same process.Or am I wrong?
Viele Grusse!;-)..."
Thank you very much!
"...Sorry..What does it mean about LHI "..but has to apply normal Lufthansa selection standards.."???..The selection have always been based on the Lufthansa classic scheme as:
1) DLR in Hamburg
2)Simulator for basic IFR and CRM
3)FQ in Hamburg
4)Final interview in Hamburg
5)Medical in Frankfurt
Is there anything else than this?All my collegues working in DLH they went through this same process.Or am I wrong?
Viele Grusse!;-)..."
Thank you very much!
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LHI (Lufthansa Italia) is about using a well known brand name w/o applying the established standards, more like buying monkeys with peanuts - all I know is 800 euros/month for cabin crew, don't know 'bout flt deck. The idea is employing the Alitalia/Air One fallout. Now they may proceed, but never fly to Germany.
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heavy.airbourne, you are simply talking about something you are not really informed about. Italian salaries are higher than than in germany incl. LH.
A F/O at AirOne makes more money than a LH F/O, so does a CPT.
If now LH thinks they can get experienced crews for peanuts, they are wrong.
They might find some unemployed pilots, but with a salary below the italian standart they wont stay for long.
@bio161 I dont really get your question, the selection has always been like this and even for LH the selection standarts have varied over the years.
A F/O at AirOne makes more money than a LH F/O, so does a CPT.
If now LH thinks they can get experienced crews for peanuts, they are wrong.
They might find some unemployed pilots, but with a salary below the italian standart they wont stay for long.
@bio161 I dont really get your question, the selection has always been like this and even for LH the selection standarts have varied over the years.
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Dear heavy.airborne,
I can understand your point of view but i would like only to suggest you not to make bad comments of people you don´t know and of situations you may have a little bit better clarified. Then offcourse everybody can mantain its own opinion. But i would not judge collegues "monkeys" just because they would work for a lower salary (if it´s going to be like this) and i would not see all what comes out from Alitalia and Airone just like rubbish on which nobody has to put even one euro. I don´t really want to compare anybody..There are really bad pilots in AZA as there are in DLH and there are really good ones in AZA as much as, i´m sure about, are in DLH. We all should bring some more respect towards each other. Whoever is sitting on a left/right seat at 39000 feet at mach 0.8 has the SAME amount of responsibility either he´s on an Uganda airline or the wonderful Lufthansa.
Beside this I would like only to say that if there are some pilots that are willing to fly for penauts it´s because they are probably without a job and like me with a 70000 euros debt to pay back..And i´m really sorry if my chances are "only" this to work for the peanuts of LHI..So just imagine how i would feel..to make the SAME selection, to fly the SAME plane, to have the SAME responsability... and to get LESS!..Do you want to make it a fault of us?
I wrote all this to underline a little bit the need to think a little more before writing.
To EAM..My question was related to the post before of Studi in which he was writing:
"..Lufthansa Italia can hire their own pilots, !!BUT!! has to apply normal Lufthansa selection standards. It can not fly to Germany, only to other countries.."
I was not getting so much the BUT..
Thank you to everybody and have a nice night!;-)
I can understand your point of view but i would like only to suggest you not to make bad comments of people you don´t know and of situations you may have a little bit better clarified. Then offcourse everybody can mantain its own opinion. But i would not judge collegues "monkeys" just because they would work for a lower salary (if it´s going to be like this) and i would not see all what comes out from Alitalia and Airone just like rubbish on which nobody has to put even one euro. I don´t really want to compare anybody..There are really bad pilots in AZA as there are in DLH and there are really good ones in AZA as much as, i´m sure about, are in DLH. We all should bring some more respect towards each other. Whoever is sitting on a left/right seat at 39000 feet at mach 0.8 has the SAME amount of responsibility either he´s on an Uganda airline or the wonderful Lufthansa.
Beside this I would like only to say that if there are some pilots that are willing to fly for penauts it´s because they are probably without a job and like me with a 70000 euros debt to pay back..And i´m really sorry if my chances are "only" this to work for the peanuts of LHI..So just imagine how i would feel..to make the SAME selection, to fly the SAME plane, to have the SAME responsability... and to get LESS!..Do you want to make it a fault of us?
I wrote all this to underline a little bit the need to think a little more before writing.
To EAM..My question was related to the post before of Studi in which he was writing:
"..Lufthansa Italia can hire their own pilots, !!BUT!! has to apply normal Lufthansa selection standards. It can not fly to Germany, only to other countries.."
I was not getting so much the BUT..
Thank you to everybody and have a nice night!;-)
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Well said! 
So the BUT is quite simple. You fly LH BUT you will not be allowed to fly routes to germany (on LH flight numbers).
This is a good and correct compromise, as LHI pilots fly outside of the standart LH network and dont fly the germany routes on "lower conditions" and force an outsourcing with this. So the LH jobs will be protected.
The same standart, or say selection will apply to the LHI pilots which is normal and the standarts are not quite different from any other airline.
@heavy.airbourne may be you should think about the way your company (LH) threats its employees as well as future employees insted of insulting other pilots.
So the BUT is quite simple. You fly LH BUT you will not be allowed to fly routes to germany (on LH flight numbers).
This is a good and correct compromise, as LHI pilots fly outside of the standart LH network and dont fly the germany routes on "lower conditions" and force an outsourcing with this. So the LH jobs will be protected.
The same standart, or say selection will apply to the LHI pilots which is normal and the standarts are not quite different from any other airline.
@heavy.airbourne may be you should think about the way your company (LH) threats its employees as well as future employees insted of insulting other pilots.
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more like buying monkeys with peanuts
Almost all pilots who attended the selection last year were part of anpac or other italian pilot unions, it would have cost nothing to VC cockpit to just send in a note to italian pilots unions to say that there was a dispute open at LH and to advise not to apply for LH Italia jobs until the dispute was set. Instead they choose to go the rough way, not informing their colleagues that they were going to face a biased assessment wasting their only chance to join LH Italia. Very sad.
It also amazes me how LH management could let these instructors run the assessments as they were certainly aware of what was going to happen.
Good luck to the 4 pilots who passed the LH Italia assessment last year out of more than 400 assessed.
Italian salaries are higher than than in germany incl. LH.
A F/O at AirOne makes more money than a LH F/O, so does a CPT.
If now LH thinks they can get experienced crews for peanuts, they are wrong.
They might find some unemployed pilots, but with a salary below the italian standart they wont stay for long.
A F/O at AirOne makes more money than a LH F/O, so does a CPT.
If now LH thinks they can get experienced crews for peanuts, they are wrong.
They might find some unemployed pilots, but with a salary below the italian standart they wont stay for long.
According to the terms of the agreement you stated above all commands will go to LH passage first officers (I have no doubts that there will be droves of them applying) so one less reason to apply to LH italia for italian first officers.
My opinion is that LH Italia doesn't really need to hire many local pilots, they just need to buy some support from local politics and media showing that they are giving out jobs to locals, and traditionally this is accomplished with quantity. So they will hire ground personnell and may be cabin crew in bigger numbers, hiring 20 local pilots won't buy them anything, as nobody cares about pilots.
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I apologize! No insult was intended. I was trying to use a colorful phrase to describe the illborne attempt of DLH management to hire professionals for ridiculously little money. I did not mean to label any person or body of employees.
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Accepted. For the time the plans of the DLH managment could work, because of the high number of unemployed pilots in italy. But it will not work for too long, as I said, salaries in italy a quite higher than in germany, so I would say the AirDolomiti payscale would be the minimum, which is already more than most german Airlines pay, including the LH Regionals.
Paying peanuts will not work, as the italian job market usualy is much more flexible than the german market.
Paying peanuts will not work, as the italian job market usualy is much more flexible than the german market.
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EAM, i mean no offense at all, it's just to to point out the target of this discussion. Is it going to be LH Italia or the LH agreement with the management? I'm pretty sure you have no idea how much a LH Cityline pilot earns (and it's really hard to compare a German contract with an Italian one) not to mention an Air Dolomiti one (right now they have the best contract in Italy, maybe not moneywise , but for sure concerning the labour regulations and benefits). Don't worry anyway, the VC cockpit bargaining team knows the subject really well, and i'm sure they wouldn't like to see any LH pilot "flying for peanuts"...
In addition, you don't have to forget that even the DLH management, is not sure what to do with LH Italia, and i don't think that right now they're looking forward to hire people...
In addition, you don't have to forget that even the DLH management, is not sure what to do with LH Italia, and i don't think that right now they're looking forward to hire people...
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worked in germany, worked in italy, know how to compare the salaries and know most of the conditions, belive me if you havent worked for AirOne or Alitalia or Volare, you have no idea how good the conditions are.
LH contracts reach that level only on the long terme.
LH contracts reach that level only on the long terme.
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Dear colleagues,
here is my point of view regarding one of your questions:
1) DLR in Hamburg
2)Simulator for basic IFR and CRM
3)FQ in Hamburg
4)Final interview in Hamburg
5)Medical in Frankfurt
1-5 are the requirements to be hired as a first officer. The famous DLR test will be modified. Until now, some of it is done in German, so I suspect that the modification will basically be a translation of the German questions.
If you want to become a Lufthansa captain, there is another requirement: You are only allowed to take part in the training to become a commander, if you have an experience of at least 3,000h with an airline operating in accordance with all Lufthansa standards.
That does not mean that you are not able to become a commander if you have some thousands hours of experience with another airline. Nevertheless, research has shown, that a common culture among pilots is one of many important items to establish a safe operation. A culture is something which cannot be learned from a book, especially if you are used to fly in a different environment. A culture has to be established. This can be done, if new pilots have to spend some thousand hours with experienced captains who already live that kind of culture in the cockpit. That's why Lufthansa will use captains from its mainline until the LHI first officers have a "Lufthansa - experience" of at least 3,000h and are ready to become captains.
Once again, I'd like to emphasize, that there are a lot of experienced Italian pilots who are excellent captains. All have their individual way how to do the job - and I do not talk about any procedure violations. There are just hundred ways to operate an aircraft according to the book. If you like to have a certain degree of homogeneity among pilots, it is much easier to teach and form relatively young and inexperienced pilots than it is to make experienced captains change their way of making decisions.
Me and most of my colleagues treat foreign colleagues with respect and we all believe in their skills (unfortunately there are a handful of exceptions, who I personally consider to be arrogant idiots), nevertheless the concept I've just tried to describe has worked well for Lufthansa in the past and we pilots do not want to see it changed. Personally, I like the idea of having a common seniority list, which gives all Lufthansa pilots (LHI, LCAG & DLH) the chance to apply for all positions the company has to offer. Unfortunately, this proposal was rejected by our managers.
I know that there are other professional airlines like Emirates, who have hired pilots with various backgrounds and these airlines also conduct safe flights. There are hundred ways how to run an airline and Lufthansa Italia will apply the standards, Lufthansa has used for decades.
I hope that there will be a regular exchange between DLH and LHI pilots. It's just the beginning of something new within a well established legacy carrier. Maybe we will be united in the future.
Auguro a tutti Voi tanto successo!
Streetcar driver
here is my point of view regarding one of your questions:
1) DLR in Hamburg
2)Simulator for basic IFR and CRM
3)FQ in Hamburg
4)Final interview in Hamburg
5)Medical in Frankfurt
1-5 are the requirements to be hired as a first officer. The famous DLR test will be modified. Until now, some of it is done in German, so I suspect that the modification will basically be a translation of the German questions.
If you want to become a Lufthansa captain, there is another requirement: You are only allowed to take part in the training to become a commander, if you have an experience of at least 3,000h with an airline operating in accordance with all Lufthansa standards.
That does not mean that you are not able to become a commander if you have some thousands hours of experience with another airline. Nevertheless, research has shown, that a common culture among pilots is one of many important items to establish a safe operation. A culture is something which cannot be learned from a book, especially if you are used to fly in a different environment. A culture has to be established. This can be done, if new pilots have to spend some thousand hours with experienced captains who already live that kind of culture in the cockpit. That's why Lufthansa will use captains from its mainline until the LHI first officers have a "Lufthansa - experience" of at least 3,000h and are ready to become captains.
Once again, I'd like to emphasize, that there are a lot of experienced Italian pilots who are excellent captains. All have their individual way how to do the job - and I do not talk about any procedure violations. There are just hundred ways to operate an aircraft according to the book. If you like to have a certain degree of homogeneity among pilots, it is much easier to teach and form relatively young and inexperienced pilots than it is to make experienced captains change their way of making decisions.
Me and most of my colleagues treat foreign colleagues with respect and we all believe in their skills (unfortunately there are a handful of exceptions, who I personally consider to be arrogant idiots), nevertheless the concept I've just tried to describe has worked well for Lufthansa in the past and we pilots do not want to see it changed. Personally, I like the idea of having a common seniority list, which gives all Lufthansa pilots (LHI, LCAG & DLH) the chance to apply for all positions the company has to offer. Unfortunately, this proposal was rejected by our managers.
I know that there are other professional airlines like Emirates, who have hired pilots with various backgrounds and these airlines also conduct safe flights. There are hundred ways how to run an airline and Lufthansa Italia will apply the standards, Lufthansa has used for decades.
I hope that there will be a regular exchange between DLH and LHI pilots. It's just the beginning of something new within a well established legacy carrier. Maybe we will be united in the future.
Auguro a tutti Voi tanto successo!
Streetcar driver
Well, they want to "attract" "inexpensive" pilots for LHI.
The people that come up with these "offers" "crunch" employment numbers and obviously believe they can live off "a current pilot surplus" (as ordered by their superiors...)
So they feel they don´t (!!) have to "attract" anyone but rather people will come in droves, lured by the aura of the yellow brand name.
And don´t let them BS you into believing/dreaming you´ll be able to get on the LH-seniority list and fly LH planes from a German aiport under a (better) mainline contract - it´s not planned, envisioned and not wanted because it would be too expensive.
It will be interesting to see what sort of "local" contract the mainline Effos will be offered to train/fly as captains there, during the "initial-growth-phase".
Divide and rule.
Best of luck to anyone applying!!
The people that come up with these "offers" "crunch" employment numbers and obviously believe they can live off "a current pilot surplus" (as ordered by their superiors...)
So they feel they don´t (!!) have to "attract" anyone but rather people will come in droves, lured by the aura of the yellow brand name.
And don´t let them BS you into believing/dreaming you´ll be able to get on the LH-seniority list and fly LH planes from a German aiport under a (better) mainline contract - it´s not planned, envisioned and not wanted because it would be too expensive.
It will be interesting to see what sort of "local" contract the mainline Effos will be offered to train/fly as captains there, during the "initial-growth-phase".
Divide and rule.
Best of luck to anyone applying!!
