BA - 1800 jobs to go this year
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Sudden Twang,
Thanks for the compliment (I think!) I'm with you a lot of the way really. I think that it's important that BA looks seriously at the way people are working in the back office because I agree there are huge opportunities to increase productivity which either means being able to do the same amount with less people or do more with the same people.
My experience is that far too much time is wasted taking decisions by committee rather than just empowering one person to look after a particular area. The back office is entrenched in a bureaocracy which needs to be broken down however most people are victims of the culture. Much of my time in BA I have been trying to change things for the better eg launch e-ticket etc but it's a very difficult place to make change happen and it gets worse in recession - every time you sneeze you have to have a business case for it!
I know that most of the people I speak with are as frustrated as I am by this. It's wrong that we use so many Consultants as we do when we have bright people in house who would come up with the same answers for a fraction of the cost.
Both my parents were BEA/BOAC - my Father as crew, my wife and I both work for BA and like you we care about this company! I just don't like being looked on as some sort of parasite because I currently work in the back office. I'm about to sign up for an ATPL with a view to joining you guys at the sharp end and am very worried by the prospect of doing all that only to find no pilot recruitment at the end of it so I think I can see the issues from both sides.
Clear skies to all of you and the very best of luck.
Desk pilot
Thanks for the compliment (I think!) I'm with you a lot of the way really. I think that it's important that BA looks seriously at the way people are working in the back office because I agree there are huge opportunities to increase productivity which either means being able to do the same amount with less people or do more with the same people.
My experience is that far too much time is wasted taking decisions by committee rather than just empowering one person to look after a particular area. The back office is entrenched in a bureaocracy which needs to be broken down however most people are victims of the culture. Much of my time in BA I have been trying to change things for the better eg launch e-ticket etc but it's a very difficult place to make change happen and it gets worse in recession - every time you sneeze you have to have a business case for it!
I know that most of the people I speak with are as frustrated as I am by this. It's wrong that we use so many Consultants as we do when we have bright people in house who would come up with the same answers for a fraction of the cost.
Both my parents were BEA/BOAC - my Father as crew, my wife and I both work for BA and like you we care about this company! I just don't like being looked on as some sort of parasite because I currently work in the back office. I'm about to sign up for an ATPL with a view to joining you guys at the sharp end and am very worried by the prospect of doing all that only to find no pilot recruitment at the end of it so I think I can see the issues from both sides.
Clear skies to all of you and the very best of luck.
Desk pilot
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Pontius, we at Brymon(soon to be CitiExpress) are wholly owned by BA unlike the others you mention. Also we operate routes that BAR cannot make a profit on or cannot operate fullstop(can't see a 737 or A319 getting in or out of Plymouth)We also make a profit, maybe small beer but at least we pay our way. Please don't denigrate the likes of us!!!
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i think people are tiring a little of flying 'wannabies' and imposters. if you buy a BA ticket, fly the product and not a third level operator. the public are not that easy to con, they can see a fruad a mile off. i position often with (ex) CFE and what a joke, small cramped planes and staff who let down the BA product a lot of the time
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Can someone tell me some facts please? How many operational & non-operational people does BA employ? How many non-operational people are employed in London? What do they actually do? Do they have an impact (either directly or indirectly) on flight safety, the airline product, customer service, employee welfare, etc?
I'm not making any judgements on people's contributions to the airline, I just want more info.
I'm not interested in badly thought out/poorly informed changes just for the sake of being seen to do something. Like most of you, I want to see a change which will improve BA's profitability whilst maintaining the airline as safe & reliable with consistently high standards. I'm assuming (or hoping) that BA's managers also have that aim.
I'm not making any judgements on people's contributions to the airline, I just want more info.
I'm not interested in badly thought out/poorly informed changes just for the sake of being seen to do something. Like most of you, I want to see a change which will improve BA's profitability whilst maintaining the airline as safe & reliable with consistently high standards. I'm assuming (or hoping) that BA's managers also have that aim.
Mistrust in Management
Paddington,
You state, <<I'm not interested in badly thought out/poorly informed changes just for the sake of being seen to do something. Like most of you, I want to see a change which will improve BA's profitability whilst maintaining the airline as safe & reliable with consistently high standards. I'm assuming (or hoping) that BA's managers also have that aim.>>
Yes I do believe they have that aim but IMHO they are so divorced from reality that the target isn't anywhere in sight.
Reaching for the Prozac again
Regards
Exeng
You state, <<I'm not interested in badly thought out/poorly informed changes just for the sake of being seen to do something. Like most of you, I want to see a change which will improve BA's profitability whilst maintaining the airline as safe & reliable with consistently high standards. I'm assuming (or hoping) that BA's managers also have that aim.>>
Yes I do believe they have that aim but IMHO they are so divorced from reality that the target isn't anywhere in sight.
Reaching for the Prozac again
Regards
Exeng
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Hey WWIIACE why don't you sod off and position with any other airline. We at CFE would be delighted to replace you with a fare paying pax.
You may find that other short haul operators have exactly the same aircraft, or were you expecting a 747 in oil sheik config?
Harry hates b******t
You may find that other short haul operators have exactly the same aircraft, or were you expecting a 747 in oil sheik config?
Harry hates b******t
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On top of the 1800 jobs to go a further 120 Engineering positions to go at Manchester.
The Hangar is to be offered for sale (some negotiations in progress at this time) if it is not sold by next March it will be mothballed.
Further discussions regarding the 120 surplus staff to take place in the near future.
The Hangar is to be offered for sale (some negotiations in progress at this time) if it is not sold by next March it will be mothballed.
Further discussions regarding the 120 surplus staff to take place in the near future.
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Some figures for thought ....
todays Telegraph ....
Ryanair 9.3 million pax BA 48 million
Ryanair 1500 workers BA 56000 i'll do the maths for you ...
Ryan 6200 pax / ee
BA 857 pax / ee
guess which one is in the black ?
oh and Ryanair are recruiting and paying their pilots more than BA . BA 747400 reaching 900 hours / year .
todays Telegraph ....
Ryanair 9.3 million pax BA 48 million
Ryanair 1500 workers BA 56000 i'll do the maths for you ...
Ryan 6200 pax / ee
BA 857 pax / ee
guess which one is in the black ?
oh and Ryanair are recruiting and paying their pilots more than BA . BA 747400 reaching 900 hours / year .
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Twang if you are going to raise a point make it reasonable, I am unaware of any longhaul routes operated by Ryanair. Put 385 people on a Jumbo to Sydney for 24 hours or 100 a time going between Stanstead and Dublin every hour! Soon distorts the figures. Are you a bean counter. If not you are in the wrong job with those maths skills.
All areas of BA seem to be staffed by a vast number of people close to retierment. When I worked there some years ago, there were thousands on pay scales dateing back to Nationalised times. Some will have gone but not all. They need to swing the axe hard. As a previous post said not 1800 but 18000. Give them really good payoffs take the financial loss for a year or two and then bring young blood in on industry rates. Paying a Red Cap £25,000 a year plus all the O/T they can handle when Service Air could do the same job for £12,000 is madness. The same is true in most areas.
One thing to look out for though, If the share price (270p at close) goes any further south, unwanted suitors may be on the horizon.
All areas of BA seem to be staffed by a vast number of people close to retierment. When I worked there some years ago, there were thousands on pay scales dateing back to Nationalised times. Some will have gone but not all. They need to swing the axe hard. As a previous post said not 1800 but 18000. Give them really good payoffs take the financial loss for a year or two and then bring young blood in on industry rates. Paying a Red Cap £25,000 a year plus all the O/T they can handle when Service Air could do the same job for £12,000 is madness. The same is true in most areas.
One thing to look out for though, If the share price (270p at close) goes any further south, unwanted suitors may be on the horizon.
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Just thought I'd throw something else into the ring ..............
BA pilots constitute 14% of the headcount but cost 18% of the wage bill (or similar figures to that). Every other department in BA has a larger headcount percentage compared to their wage bill percentage.
If BA's pilots are some badly off compared to industry, maybe you all get paid too much.
Anyway, in consolation, I believe that the frontline staff are THE most important to the bottom line because if they make a bad impression on the customer then the customer doesn't come back. There are far too many fuzzy touchy feely people in this company and we should get back to the business of shifting bodies and tonnage instead of hugging trees etc.
Time to duck I think.
BA pilots constitute 14% of the headcount but cost 18% of the wage bill (or similar figures to that). Every other department in BA has a larger headcount percentage compared to their wage bill percentage.
If BA's pilots are some badly off compared to industry, maybe you all get paid too much.
Anyway, in consolation, I believe that the frontline staff are THE most important to the bottom line because if they make a bad impression on the customer then the customer doesn't come back. There are far too many fuzzy touchy feely people in this company and we should get back to the business of shifting bodies and tonnage instead of hugging trees etc.
Time to duck I think.
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I hardly think we can afford to start swinging the axe in the Dispatchers direction, we barely have enough of them as it is. How many groups in this airline do you see working 6 days in 7 and doing 16hr double shifts on a regular basis? Yeah Service Air may do it at half the price, but judging by some of the god-awful dispatchers we get down route I think our punctuality would be history if we lowered the very high standards we currently have. Plus who would bale the company out next time the computer wizards totally foul up DCS. Remind me again how much that computer failure cost us?
Having just read Pin-heads previous post, I'd like to correct his delusion that BA pilots represent 18% of the wage bill. I think you'll find that according to the companies own figures pilots wages are in low single figures percentages in terms of the total wage bill. Don't have the exact figures to hand, but I think it works at about 1.2% of BAs total costs.
[ 06 September 2001: Message edited by: Carnage Matey! ]
Having just read Pin-heads previous post, I'd like to correct his delusion that BA pilots represent 18% of the wage bill. I think you'll find that according to the companies own figures pilots wages are in low single figures percentages in terms of the total wage bill. Don't have the exact figures to hand, but I think it works at about 1.2% of BAs total costs.
[ 06 September 2001: Message edited by: Carnage Matey! ]
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Garbage Matey - suggest you go double check those stats! I've no axe to grind with pilots (do some flying myself and drink with a few fully paid up ATPL's), just thought I'd throw in a wee grenade.
And there is an apostrophe in "Pin-heads".
And there is an apostrophe in "Pin-heads".
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270p... hmmm. What's the asset value of an airline which owns half the slots at EGLL?
Say an average of £3 million a slot... (anyone at Airline Co-ordination Ltd care to enlighten me?) probably three times the current equity of the airline... for Heathrow alone...
Say an average of £3 million a slot... (anyone at Airline Co-ordination Ltd care to enlighten me?) probably three times the current equity of the airline... for Heathrow alone...
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From today's Scotsman
BA: still up in the air BUSINESS COMMENT
All very well for British Airways to make of noises about relaunching Concorde in the wake of last year’s Paris crash.
But as far as investors are concerned, the more pertinent event has been the fall in the group’s share price below 300p (in fact down another 6p to 291p yesterday) from 470p at the beginning of this year as profitability heads for its own kind of crash.
The problems the airline is facing were underlined by figures showing traffic numbers fell faster than capacity in the year to August. The 1,800 job cuts announced on Tuesday will help reduce the cost base, but BA’s short-haul operations are now looking like a financial luxury.
With long-haul also coming under pressure, chief executive Rod Eddington has major problems on his hands.
True, in such circumstances, the £20-£40 million profit contributed by Concorde previously will be very helpful if restored at the same level.
But it may well not be enough to stop the group sliding into the red for the year to next March.
All very well for British Airways to make of noises about relaunching Concorde in the wake of last year’s Paris crash.
But as far as investors are concerned, the more pertinent event has been the fall in the group’s share price below 300p (in fact down another 6p to 291p yesterday) from 470p at the beginning of this year as profitability heads for its own kind of crash.
The problems the airline is facing were underlined by figures showing traffic numbers fell faster than capacity in the year to August. The 1,800 job cuts announced on Tuesday will help reduce the cost base, but BA’s short-haul operations are now looking like a financial luxury.
With long-haul also coming under pressure, chief executive Rod Eddington has major problems on his hands.
True, in such circumstances, the £20-£40 million profit contributed by Concorde previously will be very helpful if restored at the same level.
But it may well not be enough to stop the group sliding into the red for the year to next March.
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Hmmm, the lads are showing a great deal of intelligence and forward thinking here - Germany is the hardest hit of all the European economies; Deutsche BA is losing money hand over fist; BA has been muttering for some time about either selling it off or closing it down - and these guys want to strike if they don't get a 12% pay increase?!?
From today's atwonline.com:
From today's atwonline.com:
The 200 pilots of British Airways' loss-making German domestic subsidiary Deutsche BA have threatened "warning strikes" for next week to buttress their demands for 12% wage increases and other benefits, which have been under negotiation since June.
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GERMANY 06/09/01
Actually Germany is doing quite well now
The low inflation figures come after Germany reported a surprise rise in business confidence in July and falling unemployment in August for the first time since December last year.
Actually Germany is doing quite well now
The low inflation figures come after Germany reported a surprise rise in business confidence in July and falling unemployment in August for the first time since December last year.
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A few points:
Why are the job cuts being termed as 'across the board'? Does this mean that there will be less Board members?
If the likes of Ryanair, Easyjet and Go can all make money carrying passengers around Europe, we can't BA?
a) If people want to turn up, get on, paying for their drinks etc then that's fine. Time BA stopped pratting around realised what many CUSTOMERS want (not all I agree. However, there is a divider on the a/c) and start doing the same.........and b)The low cost carriers only charge £29, or whatever, on a small number of seats, the majority of their seats are often more expensive than BA's seats (who incidentally also take you to the major airport and not a back water 50 miles away) Why oh why do BA not stop being so gentlemanly and tell the public this in no uncertain terms? If they are offering better value for money make the public aware.
Desk-pilot this would be a far better job for the Marketing Dept. then working on a readvertising campaign for Concorde - leave that to the likes of the Daily Mail and BBC et al they seem to be doing a pretty good job so far. To highlight this point - when did BA say that they hope to start flying Concorde again? and how much profit did it generate last year? I bet many of us know the answers to both these questions and they certainly didn't come out of any BA marketing spectacular. Come on guys sharpen your vision!
Finally, we come to Guvnor!!
Guvnor - I'm sure that if you're not already paying yourself a CEO salary for your ground hugging airline that you will be as soon as you get an aircraft into the air. I presume that you would like a 'market rate' salary for this position? All we as pilots want is the same thing!
Now back to my water music
[img]null[/img]
Why are the job cuts being termed as 'across the board'? Does this mean that there will be less Board members?
If the likes of Ryanair, Easyjet and Go can all make money carrying passengers around Europe, we can't BA?
a) If people want to turn up, get on, paying for their drinks etc then that's fine. Time BA stopped pratting around realised what many CUSTOMERS want (not all I agree. However, there is a divider on the a/c) and start doing the same.........and b)The low cost carriers only charge £29, or whatever, on a small number of seats, the majority of their seats are often more expensive than BA's seats (who incidentally also take you to the major airport and not a back water 50 miles away) Why oh why do BA not stop being so gentlemanly and tell the public this in no uncertain terms? If they are offering better value for money make the public aware.
Desk-pilot this would be a far better job for the Marketing Dept. then working on a readvertising campaign for Concorde - leave that to the likes of the Daily Mail and BBC et al they seem to be doing a pretty good job so far. To highlight this point - when did BA say that they hope to start flying Concorde again? and how much profit did it generate last year? I bet many of us know the answers to both these questions and they certainly didn't come out of any BA marketing spectacular. Come on guys sharpen your vision!
Finally, we come to Guvnor!!
Guvnor - I'm sure that if you're not already paying yourself a CEO salary for your ground hugging airline that you will be as soon as you get an aircraft into the air. I presume that you would like a 'market rate' salary for this position? All we as pilots want is the same thing!
Now back to my water music
[img]null[/img]
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Diablo
You seem to suggest that I do not make a reasonable point well I thought I made it pretty clear .
Too many staff funny enough that is what you go on to say .
There is a difference between LH and SH but just look at the numbers the city seems to agree as indeed do you in a roundabout matter .
I'm not a beancounter !!
You seem to suggest that I do not make a reasonable point well I thought I made it pretty clear .
Too many staff funny enough that is what you go on to say .
There is a difference between LH and SH but just look at the numbers the city seems to agree as indeed do you in a roundabout matter .
I'm not a beancounter !!