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Ryanair off piste at PIK (23 Dec 2009)

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Ryanair off piste at PIK (23 Dec 2009)

Old 23rd Dec 2009, 10:34
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Too true to the above, have you seen them at Stansted? It's insane. To be fair to them though they do operate over 1000 flights a day so they are entitled to nearly kill some poeple at least once every few days.
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Old 23rd Dec 2009, 10:35
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Is an aircraft sliding off the taxi way onto grass considered a serious enough incident to evacuate passengers via the emergency slides and not the aircraft steps?

I would have thought that getting everyone off as quickly as possible would have been paramount?
No it isn't. An aircraft getting a wheel stuck in the mud is not grounds for risking the probability of injury of sending passengers down evacuation slides. They are reserved for those rare occaissions when there is a high follow on risk after an incident or accident. It is similar to you getting a wheel stuck in mud whilst turning your car into your driveway. An inconvenience, but not really grounds for leaping out of the drivers seat onto the lawn with your arms covering your head! It is a stuck aircraft, not a hand grenade that the pin has fallen out of.
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Old 23rd Dec 2009, 10:40
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From a passenger:

Mr Paton said the plane came off the end of the runway "just at the corner where it starts to turn round".
Undue respect for the conditions would be my (un)fair assumption. Slow down to a stop if necessary. To be genuinely fair though, mistakes happen and the pilots certainly don't deserve to be in trouble, they will have learned from it and be all the safer as a consequence.
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Old 23rd Dec 2009, 10:48
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As this is apparently a skid-off incident and not a mis-judged turn then surely the actions of the airport operator and ATC must come into question more than procedures in Ryanair. i.e. presumably air traffic either directed the aircraft to this taxiway, or allowed the captain his own discretion. In either case there is therefore a presumption that the taxiway was ice-free and safe to use.

I suspect that PIK's snow and ice clearance, and runway and taxiway inspection regime will come under scrutiny.
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Old 23rd Dec 2009, 10:53
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Would I be right in thinking it would cost money and time to replace the evacuation slides?
Yes, everything about an incident will cost time and money. However the slides are irrelevant unless I missed the part where the aircraft caught fire. It is stuck in the grassy area, why are you obsessing about the slides?
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Old 23rd Dec 2009, 11:04
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Ryanair and high taxi speeds.

Let's put this one to bed once and for all.

Ryanair has a very sophisticated Operational Flight Data Monitoring (OFDM) system in place. This little box of tricks can see almost everything that happens during a flight and if a parameter is exceeded when you land the data is sent by a GSM sim card to mother. Taxi speeds are a very hot topic and you will get a letter for even a fractional breach. Taxi speeds allowed are 30kts on a straight taxiway, 15 kts on the apron, 10kts on a 90 degree turn and if backtracking an active (N.B active) runway 50kts. Those are for good braking action much lower limits exist if slippery conditions exist. I've seen letters sent to Captains for 32kts instead of 30kts and one persistant offender who was told he wouldn't be taxyng any Ryanair aircraft ever again if he didn't play by the rules.

Now.

Can we drop all this horse manure about Ryanair aircraft taxying too fast? It's just not true.
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Old 23rd Dec 2009, 11:09
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not to mention the 10kt and 5kt limits imposed under slippery and contaminated surfaces.
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Old 23rd Dec 2009, 11:10
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PIK earlier this week -a couple of observations. Slush contamination reported with no braking action available. All other open runways in the UK I saw were in much better condition. It was unusual to see a runway with such visible contamination and no ongoing snowfall at the time. That is to say that no further apparant action was being taken to deice the runway in between snow showers.

Sympathy to the crew and to all the idiots shooting their mouths off here, unless you have been there/done that, keeping said mouth shut is the best option.
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Old 23rd Dec 2009, 11:10
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Not to forget 5 kts when doing turns in slippery conditions...
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Old 23rd Dec 2009, 11:21
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Telstar, nice to see that Ryanair has a healthy, inclusive flight safety culture!
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Old 23rd Dec 2009, 11:25
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Ted and Los,

No sooner had I hit submit then I knew some sharp eyed young gun would point that out...

Of course one would have to be informed of a braking action in the first place, which those funny little people from the you-kay don't. Ho Hum.

Bengerman, What do you want? If you are exceeding the limitations you get asked nicely twice not to do it. If you do it a third time you get called for a chat with your base OFDM administrator. If you persist you are likely to get a spanking. Is that not entirely reasonable? How does your airline deal with such issues? Serious question. That presuming you are an airline spotter and not a spotty teenage spotter.
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Old 23rd Dec 2009, 11:27
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We've been going around corners in the last few days at an absolute crawl, maybe 2-3 kts, with diffferential thust, and still the nosewheel has been skipping out. Some taxiways and aprons have been in a shocking condition. After finishing my last flight yesterday I went down the steps and promptly slipped on compacted snow and landed on my ar$e in a crumpled heap.

Emergency evacuation for an event like this - NO WAY. A dead cert way of turning a minor mishap with no injuries into an incident/accident with several injuries. If an aeroplane is on fire you'll risk a few broken limbs to save the lives of the majority of passengers, but why risk injuries when people can just use the steps in a calm, ordered and normal fashion.
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Old 23rd Dec 2009, 11:27
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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That made good reading!

Ryanair's "secret" memo over approach safety, February 7, 2007

I think that I will never fly with Ryan Scare!
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Old 23rd Dec 2009, 11:31
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UK Coefficients of Friction

Capt Ted Crilly

does anybody know why coefficients or braking actions are not supplied in the uk? is it for litigation reasons?
I cannot give you a 'full' answer other than the UK CAA insist that friction measuring devices (mu-meter etc) with todays technology are unreliable in conditions of slush and wet snow. Most snow in the UK seems to fall into the 'Wet' category...

The instructions for UK Controllers are contained in the Manual of Air Traffic Service Part One (CAP493) and are quite clear in what we as controllers are allowed to do (my emboldening)

"In conditions of slush or thin deposits of wet snow, friction measuring devices can
produce inaccurate readings. The Snow and Ice Table below applies only in conditions of compacted snow or ice. Therefore, in conditions of slush, or uncompacted snow, no plain language estimates of braking action derived from those readings shall be passed to pilots. In this case, pilots shall be informed on the RTF that measurements of co-efficients of friction are unreliable in conditions of slush or thin deposits of wet snow and, consequently, braking action assessments are not available. For readings obtained under these conditions, the code number 99 shall be used in the SNOWTAM and METAR message."

Working as I do at what is one of the UK's snowiest airports (it's not known as the Ice-Station for nothing ) I can add that in practice whenever the airport authority carry out friction tests in slush/wet snow they don't even tell US the figures recorded. We very much rely on pilot assessments which frankly vary considerably from one aircraft to the next.

We may not like it but our (ATCOs and Airport Operators) hands are tied by the CAA.

I suspect (all my own opinion of course) that the CAA are "worried" that a mu-meter run will produce figures that seem to be 'good' and the next aircraft goes sliding off the end and the lawyers get involved. Instead we have this 'system' that places the ball TOTALLY in the pilots court and if the crew decide its ok to land and then go off the end it will be the crew's fault and no-one elses.

Totally unsatisfactory imho

Safe Flying

DD
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Old 23rd Dec 2009, 11:44
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good job your punters were not standing at the time hey Mr O'leary, maybe now that idea will take a back seat
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Old 23rd Dec 2009, 11:46
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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cheers

Thanks for that info DD much appreciated.

It does seem to be completely unacceptable from where I am sitting not to furnish the crew with the info on r/w state.

Thanks again chap,happy christmas.

benji,

the memo issued from the board was to advise the pilot group that if a flight is not stabilised by 500ft agl vmc or 1000ft agl imc that the crew were to execute a go-around with a no blame policy.

we did have a problem for a while with high energy approaches,so this is how we erradicated the problem.
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Old 23rd Dec 2009, 11:59
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Two other FR "excursions" were at Charleroi(200) and E Mids
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Old 23rd Dec 2009, 12:01
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Therefore, in conditions of slush, or uncompacted snow, no plain language estimates of braking action derived from those readings shall be passed to pilots
The Mu meter is rubish in wet conditions, alle friction devices are. Norway outlawed the reporting of friction coefficient from all types of frition testers. Since last year the field maint dept. report to ATC using the Poor, poor-medium, medium etc scale. (1-5 scale) The guys doing the test can still use the friction tester, but have to apply common sense to the results, i.e do the numbers seem plausible, and then convert to the plain language "scale)

At Torp some years back the tester gave numbers in the mid 30s, even when the inspection vehicle had trouble keeping straight down the rwy. Aircraft ended up in the RESA. Slush and friction testers donīt mix.

In the same way they report worse than actual conditions on other occation, ex: Thin layer of dry snow on sanded ice. Friction tester spits out numbers in the low 20s. 737 reports BA med-good 2 minutes later.

A frition tester does not has the same properties as the tires of a 60T airliner.

The concept of not reporting anyting at all seems a bit "novel"
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Old 23rd Dec 2009, 12:02
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Great attitude. So statiscally you're pilots are going to kill someone soon? But hey we should accept that so your company can keep on growing.
No Beak, not the case and you know it. Despite what your personal view of the company, its crew and its procedures may in fact be. I think the point that the original poster was making is that as capacity and frequency increase the possibity of incident/occurance also increases. However, as a direct result, the training and procedure that we are instructed to adhere to are there to protect us and reduce the potential for incident.

While any 'Ryanair jet off end of runway' type report will nearly always lead to the inevitable 'What were the two jokers at the front thinking of' type question we must also remember that not every incident/occurance is directly attributable to their actions. I will await to see the outcome of the report before I come to the conclusion that the Captain attempted to taxi with gusto on an iced over piece of tarmac.

Until that time I will be thankful that everyone onboard is OK and remain sympathetic to the crew involved. Operationally, the last few days have been difficult with the weather and conditions lending an unhelpful hand.

Happy Christmas
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Old 23rd Dec 2009, 12:12
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I love how in that report they talk about the huge pressures of a 25min turnaround and how we break our necks to do it.

Personally I could not give a monkeys about 25mins, if the ground staff are good and manage it bonus, if they dont then I write a delay code on the v report and crack on with my day not giving it a second thought!
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