Aer Lingus to Leave Dublin Forever.

[akerosid]

The one thing that bothers me right now about EI is that we've had a major focus on cutting costs - and just that. The staff, who have made a lot of sacrifices in recent years, are being asked to make sacrifices, but without the knowledge of any change in the airline's strategy or direction. If I were an EI person, I think I'd be asking "ok, you want us to make sacrifices, but in the absence of ANY evidence of change in strategy or direction, how do I know that the sacrifices I and colleagues make won't be frittered away by poor management decisions, or just inaction?"

People have referred to collapsing pax numbers and yields, yet I've seen no evidence that EI is looking at anything smaller than the A320, a 174 seater. In the current environment, and indeed going forward, shouldn't EI be looking at something around the 100 seat mark (and there are plenty of acft in this class) if it has any hope of staving off FR?

On long haul, not the slightest evidence of change - still, despite the v. poor economy, 24 J class and no sign of any more to replace this with a Premium Economy section or to go down the long haul low cost route, a la Air Asia or Jetstar. Always the follower, never the risk taker ... perhaps that's why EI is where EI is and FR is where FR is?

Why does EI need an acft - the A350-900 - which is even bigger than the 333 and will prevent EI from expanding beyond its current core cities. Surely something around the 250-300 seats would have been a better idea?

Maybe Monday's announcement will give some indication of the airline's planned direction?

[CamelhAir]

Leo, you must have learnt by now that arguments carry more credibility when you answer directly those questions posed to you. Otherwise you run the risk of being dismissed as a mere propagandist. Now I know you'd hate to be thought of as that, so let's try a little discussion about a central point you made at the outset of this thread.
Let me remind you, you asserted that FR pilots earn either a) $250,000 or b) an average of €150,000. So, can you confirm that this is an actual factual situation or if not, why not tell us what the real average FR pilots earnings are?

[The Real Slim Shady]

Camel, what a pilot with FR makes, Leo or otherwise, doesn't make have the square root of sweet FA to do wth EI survival.

Get a life.

[no slot]

I posted today approx 5pm or a little after, its no longer live. Why is that? Is it censorship? If so i'm disgusted. I'm very much a moderate. My posts are always polite and measured. Would a moderator please have the courtesy to explain why my post is no longer live?
rgds
no slot

[Bearcat]

I note some contibutors can call others, names like pigmy etc, put vile u tube links of animals etc but when the finger is pointed elsewhere mr slot, selective censorship prevails.

[Wacked]

Your tiny gathering of underperforming stock is akin to the sound a dwarf makes when farting into a Typhoon. Well intended strenuous effort, funny from a distance, but hardly memorable.

Leo, you made my morning. I have tears from laughing. You are incredibly elequent and right in so many ways. But isin't that the trait of the great liar, to be able to tell you a lie with just the right amount of truth that you believe. O'Leary has been doing it for years with the skill that has me convinced he must be the Devil himself. Who can forget the "Pilots only work 18 hours a week" comment.

So if Olearys the Devil, I guess that makes you a sort of Beelzebub, or lesser Devil. Whispering convincingly in the ears of the greedy and weak.

But you are right about Ialpa, they are misguided and ineffectual. The pilots of Aer Lingus need to wake up and smell the stale coffee served in the dole office.

The problem is that the top 10% of Aer Lingus pilots and cabin crew don't give a **** if they lose thier jobs and they don't give a **** about the co-pilots at the beginning of thier career. As long as they get their cushy pension. They are the ones with the most to lose from a paycut and the least to lose from the Company going under, as long as the pension fund is ok. And they pull the strings in IALPA.

What Aer Lingus really needs to do is try something different and stop copying Ryans every move. DO SOMETHING ORIGIONAL!!!!!!.

One last rant...Leo, you are an endless source of entertainment and have nearly had me convinced on occasions. Then I Blink and shake my head when I realise that while you are stroking my ego and greed, you are sliding a blade in my back. **** off back to hell and take your cloven hoved father Oleary with you. Life is about people, not JUST profit.

[CamelhAir]

Camel, what a pilot with FR makes, Leo or otherwise, doesn't make have the square root of sweet FA to do wth EI survival.

Au contraire my dear Slim, it means everything. It's called the "market rate." If EI pilots are getting the market rate, then any fault attached to the problems of EI is not attached to the pilots pay rates, i.e. they are not overpaid in comparison to the opposition.
What I am trying to establish is if EI pilots really are paid better than FR. Leo claims that the average FR pay is €150,000. By verifying the accuracy of that statement, we can then deduce if the supposedly high pay of EI pilots is out of line with the principal opposition. The logical corrollory to that conclusion is if the avereage EI pay is less than €150,000 (which I believe it is), then it is in fact lower than at FR so in that case, the pilots pay is nothing to do with the problem.
So Slim and Leo, why not end the argument by verifying the actual average FR pay so we can then deduce how much fault to attach to ialpa?

[merlinxx]

EI to the UK Mainland

Wouldn't that be serving the largest Irish population outside of the USA ? At last count I was told by an Irish Lady, there are more Paddies in the UK than in the Republic, and god bless em

Come hither Shamrock, you've opened up at LGW, come on over for more

[The Real Slim Shady]

Camel

Regrettably in a formidably unionised envrionment like EI, "market rate" goes right out of the DV window! That is why you have posters claimimg that the baggage handlers can earn €100K plus.

If you want "market rates" check with your chums at IALPA or BALPA: they have the numbers. Market rate for an FR Captain is in the region of € 145K gross, LTCs etc about 15% - 25% more.

[DrKev]

for an FR Captain is in the region of € 145K gross

and from post #13 by Leo...

most Ryanair pilots, who earn an average of €150,000 a year

We can expect FR captians to earn more than the average pilot. Clearly Leo's post here suggests that FR captains make a lot more than €150,000.
Who is correct?


If you guys want to make comparisons between FR and EI (with a view to thrashing EI and it's pilots) get YOUR numbers straight. The onus is clearly on YOU. The credibility of YOUR arguments hangs on it.

Once and for all, lets see just how highly paid EI pilots may or may not be, just how badly paid FR pilots really may or may not be and how how far outside the industry norms they all may or may not be. I don't have these numbers. And I'd like to know.

EI long-haul senior captains make a lot of money and it's a problem. We all pretty much agree on that and I know many EI pilots will agree too. FR don't fly long-haul so that's out of the comparison. Compare like with like.

1) How much do FR and EI captains on similar routes REALLY make?
2) What is the average wage across all pilots at FR and again at EI?
3) What are the European market rates for similar pilots?

Answer those questions, honestly and correctly, preferably with quotes from a good industry source and then we can have a reasonable discussion.

A bunch here are blabbing like they know everything and everyone else are bunch of pathetic fools but there is precious little agreement between even themselves. Let them put the money where their mouths are. Tell us what you REALLY know. If not, please STFU.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

Train upon the Track.....

Err, just so we're all singing from the same songsheet, I'd like to address the following snippet lifted from the quoted material made in my post number 13, as requested by DrKev and queried by others.

The high-earning pilots fly on average 600 hours a year. This compares with close to the legal maximum of 900 hours worked by most Ryanair pilots, who earn an average of €150,000 a year.

I never made such a statement. The reason it appears in a big blue block and separated from my text is that it is a quotation from another source. In this particular case, Times journalist Tom Lyons. Let's do try and focus, folks.

This isn't about what Ryanair gets paid. It is about the imminent destruction of once proud Aer Lingus by a coterie of self-interested, bloody-minded unions who fail to grasp still, the fact that what was once state indulgence is now thrown to the commercial wolves. It is unfortunate that they're compelled to compete will the world's best run and commercially successful airline in their domestic €uropean operations, but trying to do so on price when their cost base wildly exceeds that of their principal competitor is just foolishness. Worse, it's emblematic of the sort of short-term thinking that has defined Aer Lingus since privatisation.

Why is this so? I'm the first to admit Aer Lingus is a lovely airline to fly with, and I do so regularly in my travels around €urope, but why is it that their long term goals have never matched their short term potential?

Recent Vice President Gore of the United States may have an anthropological explanation. This from a recent essay...

Behavioural economists believe they have the answer: our brains are hard-wired to think short-term because evolution has rewarded serial short-term successes such as avoiding predators and other dangers that faced our ancestors. Their survival ensured our existence – but predisposed us to the same kind of short-term thinking. As a result, even though our world is very different from theirs, long-term decision-making remains the exception, not the rule.

That's as may be, but in the meantime, we still have a famous airline to save. According to the surprisingly timid 'no slot' and even more timid 'waffler', Operation Greenfield, shortly to be announced, will be the maiden's last chance in terms of saving Shamrock from itself. I rather think a better title might well be Operation Scorched Earth, but as 'no slot' remarked before erasing his post, only time will tell.

May I leave the final word to Albert Einstein.

We can’t solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.

A lot of good people are facing terribly uncertain futures here, ladies and gentlemen. Lets, all of us, try to keep our eye on the ball, shall we?

[ItsAjob]

So it seems the whole of Aer Lingus has lost so much money due to a few long haul pilots wages.
Quite amazing!

[DrKev]

The eye on the ball, and how people will judge your arguments, is the accuracy of the sources that you chose to quote in support of your argument. Are you now saying that what you chose to support your argument is not worth the virtual paper it's printed on?

"It wasn't me, gov, it was that other bloke in the newspaper".

You brought up the comparison between EI and FR pilots the moment your quoted those sources. It appears that you won't stand over those figures any more. So give us some numbers that you will stand over, for both EI and FR and the rest of their competition and then lets see what conclusion we can draw. The strength of your argument depends on it.

[CamelhAir]

Leo, the good doctor is indeed correct. It is incumbent upon you to inform us which pieces of the evidence, which you chose to introduce, are truthful, accurate and can be relied upon. If the veracity of some portion of the report is in doubt, so is the rest until you can prove otherwise.

[Sober Lark]

Mr. Leo Hairy Camel, why hard wire your brains so much to invest in Aer Lingus then state you wouldn't make a third bid?

[irishpilot1990]

Hello,

To sober lark.... why would they make a 3rd offer? I wouldn’t. I would sit it out....
Wait for government etc to phone him and BEG Ryanair to take their share before its not worth a penny!!! Also Aer Lingus I believe is a super brand name, perfect for Ryan long haul fleet don’t you think? The new AOC helps that idea. But MOL is delaying that idea for at least 4 years, so another reason to wait.
He can leave Aer Lingus cull its staff, struggle along then come in and be a saviour not an enemy! So wait, get a bargain, instant long haul ops and at the time he decides to move A.L will be a much smaller hole in his wallet then it is now!!!

drkev...why are you moaning over figures between Ryanair and Aer Lingus? What has ryr got to do with it??? Irrelevant to the future of Aer Lingus...it doesn’t matter if the Ryanair pilot is on 10euro a year or 10 million euro…Aer Lingus must reduce pay by whatever amount necessary to make profit.
The only figure that matters is the 100million loss the company is making and the fact the pilots and everyone else in the airline is paid more then other airlines, and hence cant compete.
And why is everyone blaming the long haul pilots…hmm I doubt they are the sole or even majority reason for that 100million figure, I stand to be corrected!

[airmail]

Slightly off topic (for which I apologise) but a quick questions about RYR's aircraft.

We all know the interior layout in terms of where the safety card is and the lack of trays etc etc. Whilst they got a good deal with Boeing on this basis (and the number of aircraft ordered), how does this layout have an impact on any resale value? The aircraft will only be kept for a certain period of time and then sold on elsewhere but surely the layout will increase the amount of work (and therefore cost) that would need to be done as they are the only carrier (to my knowledge) that kits their aircraft out like this.

Of course they could be bought by another LoCo but they would have to change everything internally anyway as I'm sure that RYR wouldn't want their colour schemes on another airline.

No axe to grind, just curious.

airmail

[bia botal]

'Flipping' used aircraft was a major source of revenue for Ryanair until recently but they haven't sold one for quite some time now and unless the price reflects the the work required to bring them up to spec thats not going to change anytime soon. Worrying times for Leo and the boys

And yet the company managed to make 380 million over the summer, with predicted annual profits of 220 million.

With some major surgery Aer Lingus could be saved

For Aer Lingus to be saved it will take more dirty tricks and back handers than even MOL could come up with, more than likely only resulting in a short-term delay, for as always the unions will bore in, demanding that the cuts need not be so severe, the the lay-offs are to many and the pay cuts are to big, the management will waiver as always, and Christoph Mueller just like Dermot Mannion and Willy Walsh before him will rolls his eyes to the ceiling, thinking this sounds familiar and wonder where his next job is at.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

Deadlock among the walking dead.

No agreement at Aer Lingus talks

Tuesday, 1 December 2009 10:50

Talks between unions and management at Aer Lingus on a cost-cutting plan to secure the future of the airline have adjourned at the Labour Relations Commission without agreement.

The decision to adjourn was taken following more than 16 hours of talks, which began yesterday afternoon.

It is understood that the airline has tabled its final set of proposals to the five groups of workers involved, and other counter proposals have been tabled by the unions.

The company is to consider the submissions and progress at a board meeting later this afternoon, while union leaders are to consult with their members. There are no plans to reconvene the talks, but sources suggested this might happen after the company's board has met.

Sources close to the talks are optimistic that a deal with head office workers, ground handlers and craft workers is close. But it is understood that there remains substantial unresolved issues between the company and pilots and cabin crew.

Among the proposals currently being considered are ten days unpaid leave for most employees, changes in work practices, a 10% pay cut for the higher paid and a large number of voluntary redundancies.

The redundancy offer would be statutory redundancy plus four weeks per year of service, with a ceiling of two years - far less than the deal given to workers during its last round of restructuring.

Pilots are said to be unhappy with the proposals, which would see them deliver savings of €30m, because they feel they would not be getting sufficient return recognition, given their equity stake in the company, and the role they played in fending off a takeover by Ryanair.

[JayPee28bpr]

Sack the Board, Sack the Board, Sack the Board...

Pilots are said to be unhappy with the proposals because they feel they would not be getting sufficient return recognition, given their equity stake in the company

Surely the solution is for the pilots to show even more faith, and buy even more shares? I'm sure somebody will lend them the money if they need it, in return for a seat on the Board perhaps (one Mr B Ahern can advise on how to structure such a transaction). Then, having bought enough shares, the pilots can sack the Board and appoint themselves as Directors. Problem solved. I don't think peripheral matters such as excess costs and inadequate revenues should be allowed to obscure what needs doing here.